calvaryoakville
New member
Re: Proof from the Bible that God is In Time
GOD IS IN CONTROL.
God is all knowing therefore God is in time.
GOD IS IN CONTROL.
God is all knowing therefore God is in time.
Proof from the Bible that God is In Time
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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What does that have to do wit time?
Circular reasoning and begging the question.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I wan't trying to make an argument, other than to point out the fact that the logic inferred simply wasn't there in the argument I copied.
Then you shouldn't have a hard time showing that to be the case: that calvaryoakville has no logical support for his argument...
What does this even mean?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
time is of the essence.......
time is of the essence.......
~*~*~
'God' is only in time from a time-perspective, as things relate to one another in space, between objects, personalities, etc....because all these movements transpire within space-time relativity.
Those of us also including 'God' as existing in a timeless condition of existence hold such philosophically, for there is that realm of Being that is before time and prior to space out of which and in which all space-time relativity-perceptions arise. That realm is as an infinite womb or substratum of potential from which creation springs and all its relations (this includes mind, energy, matter, spirit, personality, etc.).
God is both within and without time.
God and Time
Blog post on space and time
The fact that God is in time is obvious because we perceive such within the perspective of time, but this does not prove that there is not a condition that is before time or prior to space as we understand such in the conventional sense.
The Open Theist approach is commendable but limited still as touching on some points regarding free will and an 'open future', points which I concur with up to a certain point. Because we in this creative dimension interface our perception and knowledge within movements of space and time, it is natural to assume all reality transpires within time or that 'God' is always somehow in 'time', but such depends on defining terms, point of view and various other assumptions.
In-joy,
pj
time is of the essence.......
~*~*~
'God' is only in time from a time-perspective, as things relate to one another in space, between objects, personalities, etc....because all these movements transpire within space-time relativity.
Those of us also including 'God' as existing in a timeless condition of existence hold such philosophically, for there is that realm of Being that is before time and prior to space out of which and in which all space-time relativity-perceptions arise. That realm is as an infinite womb or substratum of potential from which creation springs and all its relations (this includes mind, energy, matter, spirit, personality, etc.).
God is both within and without time.
God and Time
Blog post on space and time
The fact that God is in time is obvious because we perceive such within the perspective of time, but this does not prove that there is not a condition that is before time or prior to space as we understand such in the conventional sense.
The Open Theist approach is commendable but limited still as touching on some points regarding free will and an 'open future', points which I concur with up to a certain point. Because we in this creative dimension interface our perception and knowledge within movements of space and time, it is natural to assume all reality transpires within time or that 'God' is always somehow in 'time', but such depends on defining terms, point of view and various other assumptions.
In-joy,
pj
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Indefinity.......
Indefinity.......
This might be true from a universal/cosmic perspective of ultimate divine providence, but on a relative scale within the parameters of freedom of choice, it appears 'God' is not in control, or he would be the directive force behind all sin and sorrow in the world.
You would have to define or explain just what 'God' is in control of and to what extent.
We might say 'God' is knowing all potentials and possibilities at any moment in time
'God' however as a 'Being'....is infinite, and by definition is not limited even by ones concept of 'time' or 'space'. 'God' is not necessarily 'in' or 'out' of anything, since he is both everything and beyond everything.
pj
Indefinity.......
This might be true from a universal/cosmic perspective of ultimate divine providence, but on a relative scale within the parameters of freedom of choice, it appears 'God' is not in control, or he would be the directive force behind all sin and sorrow in the world.
You would have to define or explain just what 'God' is in control of and to what extent.
We might say 'God' is knowing all potentials and possibilities at any moment in time
'God' however as a 'Being'....is infinite, and by definition is not limited even by ones concept of 'time' or 'space'. 'God' is not necessarily 'in' or 'out' of anything, since he is both everything and beyond everything.
pj
Aimiel
Well-known member
It's painfully obvious and you loaned your support for my argument against his illogical post. :jawdrop:
Shasta
Well-known member
That the divine interactions of the Trinity have to be consecutive and sequential is an extrapolation from human experience. We humans have to communicate our feelings and thoughts to each other in a reciprocal, consecutive manner because we are separate beings with limited intellects who need to encode and decode messages as they come. The Trinity being of one essence would immediately be able apprehend what any part of the God head feels or says without going through a step-wise exchange.
In fact, what is to prevent all the members of the Trinity from inter-communing with each other simultaneously. We humans can interact simultaneously as a man does with his wife. Not only that but God, who is able to listen and speak to every being in the universe simultaneously on innumerable subjects then He is certainly able to do the same within Himself.
As complex as human relationships are our interactions could be divided into discrete units of response that fall into a sequence. If the inter-Theistic interaction COULD be understood in this way how long would each successive “event” last? Is it a case of a day being like a thousand years or a thousand years being as a day? It is impossible to know but given what we know of the infinite intelligence of God it could all just as well happen instantaneously. How much time does your God need to process things?
Here is something else. You say that the inter-Theistic fellowship had been going on from eternity past, the past being conceived of as a succession of linear time (however measured). Very well then. Based on that premise let me offer the following thought experiment. Suppose I am in my car driving on the (pre-creation) road of linear time. My destination, the point when my highway merges onto earth-time is marked by the sign “GENESIS 1:1.” Now the highway I am on had no beginning but if it had no beginning, then how long have I been traveling on it - forever. Even though I have been on it forever I am still driving. This because, having no beginning, the highway is infinitely long. Knowing that it is infinitely long and that I have traveling on it forever I begin to wonder if I will ever reach “GENESIS ONE.” Rationally, speaking I never will. How else could it be? I have already been on the road forever and still have not reached it. Sadly I realize that I will always be approaching my destination but I will never get any nearer. This is the illogicality of an “eternal time past.”
I do not know who this fellow is who offers complex proofs for eternal time but unless he is making a merely philosophical argument there are many more "proofs" that the kind of time we know (the effects of which we can measure) do not match your simple "common sense" construct. You might want to think that time is not linked to space and mass but that is the way it is here in the present world we live in.
You're an idiot.
Aimiel
Well-known member
I know you are, but what am I?
I wouldn't be surprised to learn you have a lot in common with Paul Reubens.
You're an idiot because you think I was agreeing with you simply because I think neither of you provided the necessary evidence to back up your claims, and that your argument was more illogical than his.
In summation, I called your argument illogical and you claim I agreed with you. Thus, you're an idiot.
Shasta
Well-known member
Well, you have made some pronouncements and punctuated it by adding that whoever does not believe it is ignorant. It does not take much to say "this is the way it is, anyone who does not believe it is just too stupid to see it" but that does not go very far with me.
Now I quite agree that God has been here forever and that He simply spoke the cosmos into being but that is perfectly consistent with my view of God's. Without a time line there are no preceding events. The situation only becomes irrational when you try to do something irrational - like speak of endless time before creation
I used the word "cross" to go with the metaphor of a line or road. Forget God "crossing" over something "to." What I mean is that before God spoke the creative word an infinite number of events would have taken place over an infinite amount of time. Infinite time means time that was unending, lasting forever. It is like saying He spoke after an everlasting past. It would be like my saying my previous job lasted literally forever. Of course it could not really have lasted forever otherwise I would still be doing it. This nonsense happens only when you superimpose linear time model on something that it cannot possibly fit.
Your party's definition of time is as I understand it something like, "a series of changes"
(defined by actions, thoughts or states). Each "event", gives rise to the next according to some organizing principle. If each "change" in the series randomly followed the last there would be no pattern and hence no time. "Time" that is random is not time (try telling time with a clock that moves randomly). If the flow of these changes is circular, or if they follow some unpredictable changing model then time as we know it also does not exist.
God's being is active, true. Your speculations about how God might be sequentially changing, evolving, before creation would make interesting reading. Your ingenuity in coming up with supporting scriptures would be even more interesting. I am not going to completely address what "eternal" means. I think it is clear what it means to us but saying that "time" extends backwards before creation in the same sense that it does forward once the universe exists is untenable.
John 17:3-5 talks about the Glory Jesus and the Father "had" together or "shared" There is no indication of action - that they gave anything back and forth. There is just the idea that they were simultaneously enjoying it. In the beginning of his gospel John said the Word "was" with God and the Word "was" God Using the verb to be in the imperfect tense indicates something ongoing but existence is also a state. He is living but there is no indication of continual successive changes. God does not need to evolve or carry on exchanges of information and expressions of love when all are instantaneously known and apprehended. That is for mortals. Apparently state and stasis are not synonymous and neither are activity and change. Those are paradoxical. Some impatient to relieve the tension have ended up in error. This is just as true for Calvin's disciples as those of latecomers, Pinnock and Clark.
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That is not at all what I said.
Are you aware that Einstein theorized there were an infinite number of points between any two given points, at all times, no matter how close they were, and thus two objects could never actually touch? And yet...
Who said it was random?
And, fyi, 2 o clock is not real. Measurements of time are simply a concept and not actually time itself.
I'll concede if you can show me a single verse that states God is outside of time, or shows that to be the case.
Dimwit.
The fact that you can't see the the error in your argument is proof of this.
Because God is A He can't be not A.
:mock: open theism...Nowhere to go.
We are kept by the power of God.
1 Peter 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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What's up with the "moral government" of Bob Enyart? he gets to decide when God applies His eternal power? Bob Enyart defines eternal?
open theism wants it both ways. Eternal God when it applies to your salvation but yet God has no power to keep you.
God is "your time". Open Theism wants to tell you where you belong in God's plan. Doesn't sound like open theism is as fair as God is.
1 Peter 1:5
who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
----------------------
What's up with the "moral government" of Bob Enyart? he gets to decide when God applies His eternal power? Bob Enyart defines eternal?
open theism wants it both ways. Eternal God when it applies to your salvation but yet God has no power to keep you.
God is "your time". Open Theism wants to tell you where you belong in God's plan. Doesn't sound like open theism is as fair as God is.
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