Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[Lon]

No, you have not. I see perfectly what you are claiming, and this subject is beyond your mental capacity to reason logically.

Just tell me you completed precalculus to assert such a thing....

 

[Nathon Detroit]

And this is what Open Theism is creating. Very close to atheism.

Come on sky, really? I enjoy a good debate now and then yet you do not seem to be even trying. For you to join us in this "debate" you need to be able to make some reasonable points and hopefully argue those points with some degree of intelligence.

I have been trying my best to have a conversation with you and this is the best you can do? I have faith that you are smarter and more reasonable than you have demonstrated yourself to be in this thread.

 

[sky.]

Come on sky, really? I enjoy a good debate now and then yet you do not seem to be even trying. For you to join us in this "debate" you need to be able to make some reasonable points and hopefully argue those points with some degree of intelligence.

I have been trying my best to have a conversation with you and this is the best you can do? I have faith that you are smarter and more reasonable than you have demonstrated yourself to be in this thread.

You don't debate with truth from the Bible. You deny it and then call on what Bob has taught you. All of what you need to know is in the Bible. What do you want me to do, go with your "settled truth"?

 

[Lon]

Huh? Is it me or what? I am having a hard time understanding what you and sky are saying. Maybe I'm have a stroke or a brain aneurism or something. :idunno:

Huh?
I think I better just go ahead and dial 911.

Sorry Knight, I'm getting mixed messages. The first seemed like a "don't interrupt" comment and then these next two seem like "okay, now you can, please" kinds of comments. Forgive my confusion with a response if I can be of assistance/debate.

-Lon

 

[genuineoriginal]

Clearly, though, this does not follow. If you assert that God exists in time, but you assert that the world has a beginning, you must confess that God temporally was present prior to the creation of the world. Which begs the question...What was God doing before He created the world?

He was existing. We know God is self-sufficient, so He didn't need anything else to occupy His time.

In fact, if you admit that the world had a beginning in time and that God likewise has a temporally infinite existence, then you must confess a further absurdity: an infinite amount of time elapsed prior to the creation of the world. If this is the case, then I must confess that two things are the case:

It is not absurd to believe an unmeasurable amount of time elapsed prior to the creation of the world.

1. God is awefully lazy if He spent an infinite amount of time just hanging before He finally got around to creating the world. Your God is far more slothful than any Democrat I've ever met.

You are presuming that God had a duty to create the world, not that He did it out of His good pleasure.

2. Even worse: if an infinite amount of time elapsed prior to the creation of the world, then, in fact, you must confess that it is impossible that this world should exist at all. It's impossible to traverse an actual infinity. If an infinite amount of time elapsed prior to the creation of the world, then God would still be waiting to create the world.

You are applying Achilles and the tortoise to God and time.
It doesn't matter that an unmeasurable amount of time elapsed before God created the world. The time had already elapsed, so there would be no more waiting.

 

[Traditio]

He was existing. We know God is self-sufficient, so He didn't need anything else to occupy His time.

Then why bother creating the world at point A rather than point B? I can grant a Supremely Rational God who freely decides to create the world from all eternity. I cannot grant a God who waits for a bazillion years and then creates the world for no apparent reason.

It is not absurd to believe an unmeasurable amount of time elapsed prior to the creation of the world.

You changed the word because you don't want to face up to the absurdity of your position. I didn't say "unmeasurable." I said "infinite." If God exists forever (for an infinite amount of time), then there's an actual infinity prior to the creation of this world.

You are presuming that God had a duty to create the world, not that He did it out of His good pleasure.

I don't presume this at all. I freely admit that God freely created the world and could have chosen not to do. What I cannot admit is that God would think that time B is any better than time A to create the world.

You are applying Achilles and the tortoise to God and time. It doesn't matter that an unmeasurable amount of time elapsed before God created the world. The time had already elapsed, so there would be no more waiting.

Again, you're using the term "unmeasurable." This is a misnomer. As a matter of fact, if the Open Theists are right, then an actual infinity precedes the creation of the world. This isn't merely a reiteration of Zeno's paradoxes. Note that in Zeno's paradoxes, he plays on the fact that finite quantities are infinitely divisible.

That's not my concern here. My concern is that the quantity itself is actually infinite. Not even God can traverse successively an actual infinity.

To which you say: "Yeah, but the time has already elapsed. We don't have to wait any more." Which is a ridiculous answer. The very concept of "infinite time" means that it can't fully elapse.

 

[sky.]

This should be interesting to see who sides with Bob and Tom. I mean Bob and Knight. It will be the ones who deny the literal interpretation of Scripture.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You changed the word because you don't want to face up to the absurdity of your position. I didn't say "unmeasurable." I said "infinite."

I changed the word from an impossible mathematical construct (infinite) to the truth. Infinite is as real as i.

God's existence is unmeasurable by anything but God.
The amount of time He has existed is beyond our ability to fathom (another term for measurement).

When you can provide practical proof that infinite exists outside of logic, then we can discuss whether my term or your term was the wrong one to use.

 

[Lon]

It is not absurd to believe an unmeasurable amount of time elapsed prior to the creation of the world.

As one who taught algebra, yes it is absurd. You cannot have an eternal non-beginning that isn't, at the very least, bi-directional/durational.

 

[GuySmiley]

What I cannot admit is that God would think that time B is any better than time A to create the world.

Why does one time have to be better than the other for Him to choose one? And why can't one time be better than the other?

 

[genuineoriginal]

As one who taught algebra, yes it is absurd. You cannot have an eternal non-beginning that isn't, at the very least, bi-directional/durational.

Are you arguing that an impossible mathematical construct proves that God did not exist before creating the world?

 

[Lon]

Are you arguing that an impossible mathematical construct proves that God did not exist before creating the world?

No, I'm disagreeing immeasurable amounts of specifically 'unidirectional time' adequately describe and infinite past, when in fact such a notion doesn't describes eternal non-beginning. It rather describes a starting point in temporal time,then infinite duration (like your and my created existence), not eternity past and future (God's infinite existence); mathematically, and logically.

 

[Ps82]

Most people posting are making this so difficult. Someone has already mentioned the simple truth that time involves stuff happening over time... and there are many ways to measure it... by the cycle of the moon's movement... by the earth's movement around the sun ... or by the rotation of the earth... by the seeming consistent speed of light... and obviously there are other ways to measure it. For instance, God first measure time in this way - There was evening and morning and there was the first day.

When the ONE God decided to create worlds and beings - whether they were of heaven or earth ... He did so by setting stuff into motion... and thus time began to march.

We (humans) have no idea whether God has created other worlds and realms about which we may not even know. If he has then who knows how they might measure time? We can only try to understand how to count our time.

The creator is on the outside of time looking into places where he has set time measurement into motion. (He exists in a state called eternity and look in on thing from a position called omni-present.

Yet, when we study the scripture and just consider "our realm" and "our measurement of time" and our relationship with the ONE invisible spiritual God, then we learn that God created everything, set things into motion and was also able to enter into "our times" by manifesting his presence within the creation in a literal visible manner.

That is how God entered time... he basically set things in motion and created the need for measuring it. God was able to exist outside of time and yet within it as well.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Most people posting are making this so difficult. Someone has already mentioned the simple truth that time involves stuff happening over time... and there are many ways to measure it... by the cycle of the moon's movement... by the earth's movement around the sun ... or by the rotation of the earth... by the seeming consistent speed of light... and obviously there are other ways to measure it. For instance, God first measure time in this way - There was evening and morning and there was the first day.

When the ONE God decided to create worlds and beings - whether they were of heaven or earth ... He did so by setting stuff into motion... and thus time began to march.

God was in motion before He set other stuff into motion. But, I think you are right that time was first measured before the first evening and morning. That means that God invented the measuring of time at the beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth. The amount of time He existed prior to that was never measured.

 

[ghost]

Most people posting are making this so difficult. Someone has already mentioned the simple truth that time involves stuff happening over time... and there are many ways to measure it... by the cycle of the moon's movement... by the earth's movement around the sun ... or by the rotation of the earth... by the seeming consistent speed of light... and obviously there are other ways to measure it. For instance, God first measure time in this way - There was evening and morning and there was the first day.

When the ONE God decided to create worlds and beings - whether they were of heaven or earth ... He did so by setting stuff into motion... and thus time began to march.

We (humans) have no idea whether God has created other worlds and realms about which we may not even know. If he has then who knows how they might measure time? We can only try to understand how to count our time.

The creator is on the outside of time looking into places where he has set time measurement into motion. (He exists in a state called eternity and look in on thing from a position called omni-present.

Yet, when we study the scripture and just consider "our realm" and "our measurement of time" and our relationship with the ONE invisible spiritual God, then we learn that God created everything, set things into motion and was also able to enter into "our times" by manifesting his presence within the creation in a literal visible manner.

That is how God entered time... he basically set things in motion and created the need for measuring it. God was able to exist outside of time and yet within it as well.

Forget about creation. God experiences duration, whether he measures it or not. God exists, and therefore movement, communication, and time exists. You guys are too focused on your fish bowl existence.

 

[Traditio]

Forget about creation. God experiences duration, whether he measures it or not. God exists, and therefore movement, communication, and time exists. You guys are too focused on your fish bowl existence.

Therefore God cannot create the world. :idunno:

 

[Lon]

Forget about creation. God experiences duration, whether he measures it or not. God exists, and therefore movement, communication, and time exists. You guys are too focused on your fish bowl existence.

Yes, no problem. The problem is thinking that's 'only' what He experiences. Such is impossible for God who has no beginning.

 

[ghost]

Therefore God cannot create the world. :idunno:

Sure He can. God said let there be light. Before God said "Let there be light", was the light there?

 

[ghost]

Yes, no problem. The problem is thinking that's 'only' what He experiences. Such is impossible for God who has no beginning.

You do not have to have a beginning for duration to exist.

 

[Traditio]

Sure He can. God said let there be light. Before God said "Let there be light", was the light there?

No, and there's still none. God is still waiting for forever to pass so that He can say "Let there by light." Until forever passes, He's got to keep waiting. So, no light. No creation.