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Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

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  • Originally posted by Knight View Post
    Excellent.

    Time itself isn't a thing, it's merely the notion or concept that one event follows another event and so on.
    Originally posted by voltaire View Post
    Exactamundo. That is why scientific theories that depend on time as some kind of physical reality in and of itself are flawed.
    Ugghh, a 'thought' is a 'thing.' I can't be thinking about 'no-thing.'
    Be precise, people.

    Other than that, all Ghost said was that whatever we see is a 'property' of God. That's a no-brainer that doesn't mean what you thought it meant. It simply means 'no-thing' exists apart from God. Welcome to the traditions.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by zippy2006 View Post
      A clock is inanimate:
      The are two main definitions of "inanimate" the most common one is... Lacking the quality or ability of motion.

      A clock moves and therefore is NOT inanimate. If you take the lessor definition (inanimate is something that is not alive) I guess you would be right because a clock isn't alive.

      But I think the first definition is the best since it's how most folks use the term but I certainly don't want to argue over definitions of words.

      The nature of a perfect clock does not need to change. Perfection needn't be static. Indeed God is perfect and fully actual, pure act as Thomas would say.

      The nature of a perfect parent does not need to change. When we say perfection or immutability we are not talking about something which has no movement (again, the philosophers noted that God is always in complete movement, always reaching out in love).

      When you see a bad parent and say to them "you need to change," you do not mean that they must move their finger, you mean that they must do something differently than the way they are currently doing it. They must act in a way they are not currently acting. This may imply more physical movement or less physical movement, that's not the point.

      What you are describing here is also what an open theist would say. God's righteous character does not change.

      Yet in this conversation we are trying to find out if He can change in any way at all (besides just His nature). After all... if God is outside of time and in a state of "forever now" He could not change in any way whatsoever (having nothing to do with His nature).
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      Comment


      • Originally posted by zippy2006 View Post
        Sure you can.
        I gave you the opportunity to think first, but I see you decided not to.
        You think ignorance is a pre-requisite for creativity, but that's not true.
        You're not getting this at all. It has nothing to do with ignorance (except on your part). If God is outside of time, and knows all things, then all things are eternally in the mind of God and therefore God is incapable of creativity for that in which he would conceive is as eternal as He is.
        An artist with immense knowledge paints a beautiful picture of the Blessed Virgin Mary. His effort was creative, it does not matter that he already knew what he was going to paint.
        We are not talking about a physical reality of that which is conceived, but conceiving. You are mixing the two.

        Your real concern is that a thought of God cannot be novel/new/original from God's own perspective. That is true, for what is perfect does not need to change.
        You keep contradicting yourself.

        God is perfect, yet He changed and never became less than perfect. Change does not negate perfection. God is a living God. He moves. He acts. He loves. He creates. He conceives. He judges. He initiates. He speaks. He teaches.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Knight View Post
          The are two main definitions of "inanimate" the most common one is... Lacking the quality or ability of motion.

          A clock moves and therefore is NOT inanimate. If you take the lessor definition (inanimate is something that is not alive) I guess you would be right because a clock isn't alive.

          But I think the first definition is the best since it's how most folks use the term but I certainly don't want to argue over definitions of words.
          Fair enough, though I disagree on the common usage, based on the primary definitions given in dictionaries.

          What you are describing here is also what an open theist would say. God's righteous character does not change.

          Yet in this conversation we are trying to find out if He can change in any way at all (besides just His nature). After all... if God is outside of time and in a state of "forever now" He could not change in any way whatsoever (having nothing to do with His nature).
          I think we agree on that basic idea of immutability then. I think what you are inquiring about is God's action within the temporal universe? Can the orthodox God act in time?

          I'd say He can. Do you have a specific critique/argument that would show that He cannot? Apparently you think that since God does not exist in temporality He therefore cannot act within His temporal creation? I don't think God's temporal creation somehow limits Him from entering...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lon View Post
            Ugghh, a 'thought' is a 'thing.' I can't be thinking about 'no-thing.'
            Be precise, people.

            Other than that, all Ghost said was that whatever we see is a 'property' of God. That's a no-brainer that doesn't mean what you thought it meant. It simply means 'no-thing' exists apart from God. Welcome to the traditions.
            Lon... are 3 persons God eternally?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Knight View Post
              How about a perfect clock?
              A perfect clock remains a perfect clock, regardless of what time it displays. A clock's nature/substance does not change just because its display of time changes.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ghost View Post
                Lon... are 3 persons God eternally?
                This should be interesting.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ghost View Post
                  God is perfect, yet He changed and never became less than perfect. Change does not negate perfection. God is a living God. He moves. He acts. He loves. He creates. He conceives. He judges. He initiates. He speaks. He teaches.
                  Agreed, within His creation. Change within one's nature is not creativity, it is either a bettering or a worsening of oneself. God is perfect, He does not improve or get worse. See my conversation with Knight.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by sky. View Post
                    This should be interesting.
                    It should be, but you'll never know why.

                    Comment


                    • Other posts undoubtedly missed but important to this specific discussion:
                      The difference between infinite God and finite man:
                      Originally posted by Lon View Post
                      Somewhere in infinity is us. We are inside of the infinite. We have constructs for our existence and these have parameters. Anything with parameters we call 'finite' as in de'finite.' We can de-'fine' where something starts and stops because we can see it and measure it. In math, we understand the concept that lines continue past our perception and never have ends. They keep going forever (immeasurable). Even the 'idea' of time is possible only by having a point A and B. Without either of these, there is no such thing as duration because we cannot measure it (the definition of time - a measurement from point A to B). That is, you cannot even conceive of 'time' for something that has no beginning or end, which God does/is.
                      2nd) Automatcally, this places God, not as a stone stuck inside of the universe, but beyond it. Because He extends beyond the universe and all creation, He is constantly moving beyond our grasp. Where would He 'move' to? God isn't 'moving' like you or I [not constrained to just that], He is the definition of movement.
                      Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and have our being, as also certain of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.

                      Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
                      Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
                      Scriptural references that time is a God-given concept:
                      Originally posted by Lon View Post

                      2Co 10:13 But we will not boast beyond measure, but according to the measure of the rule which the God of measure distributed to us, to reach even to you.

                      Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
                      Eph 3:15 of whom the whole family in Heaven and earth is named,
                      Eph 3:16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man;
                      Eph 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
                      Eph 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height,
                      Eph 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fullness of God.
                      Eph 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
                      Eph 3:21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever. Amen.
                      Regarding 'Greek influence:
                      Originally posted by Lon View Post
                      No, all of what God reveals is in sync, not opposition. "The heavens declare the glory of God..." "...His...qualities are known by what has been made so that no man has excuse..."
                      Besides, you argue similarly on other points such that this isn't consistent theology from you. You present logical arguments as well.

                      As with AMR, I disagree. I AM is actualized. "I'm going to be/become" is potentiality.

                      Which of these is actually God's scripture revelation to us (rhetorical)?
                      Which of these is actually a philosophical assertion (rhetorical)?
                      Originally posted by DFT_Dave View Post
                      I'll take my post from the other thread we have been engaged in to answer the track illustration.
                      .... time is not a thing in itself...
                      --Dave
                      Noun: person, place, thing, idea. Yup, time is a thing, an idea.
                      Is it a physical property? Insomuch as it measures, physical things, but no it is a logical concept of duration.
                      Originally posted by DFT_Dave View Post
                      God's involvement with us means, logically, that he is in the same time and space reality as we are. God's invisibility does not mean he is "timeless and spaceless", his presence is simply not physical and visible. God acts and interacts sequentially, even though he does more than one thing at a time, any number of things he does will be followed by a number of other things, but not everything all at once.

                      In your example, if God moves the track that means time in God. He laid the track one way "before" we prayed and he moves the track in another direction "afterwards".

                      --Dave
                      God isn't in the same reality['only,' or to be thought of as constrained], He interacts with it, but isn't one of us.


                      1. <--------------------------------------------->
                      2 <-------------|-------------|---------------->

                      The first represents God's eternal being (no beginning/no end).
                      The second represents our finite beginning (a beginning with no end but
                      with measurable increments.
                      Note that only the second can be measured by any possible means, the first cannot: Because God has no beginning, there is no point in time you can start measuring His existence. All segments of His eternity are artificial (created) by logic and necessity. This, imo, proves that time is a product of creation specifically because it is impossibly to quantify or qualify His existence other than His specific interactions with the segments involved. They are artificial (created). Time is a segmented concept only possibly by our existence. What God does can be measured (our existence). It is impossibly to apply the same to His existence. Having no beginning, there is no place or point which can be measured because His existence goes both forward and backward from any point you'd wish to measure duration. If you acquiesce His eternal nonbeginning, this very statement means He is without time.

                      When/if we are involved in this discussion further, I'll simply refer back to this post. It is a sound proof that cannot be thwarted or escaped.
                      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                      ? Yep

                      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by zippy2006 View Post
                        Agreed, within His creation. Change within one's nature is not creativity, it is either a bettering or a worsening of oneself. God is perfect, He does not improve or get worse. See my conversation with Knight.
                        Why does change indicate imperfection? Can't that which is perfect change perfectly?
                        fidelis usque ad mortem

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ghost View Post
                          Lon... are 3 persons God eternally?
                          This could have been set up better to get us further down the road a bit more quickly. You know I agree with you on this point already.
                          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                          ? Yep

                          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Lon View Post

                            1. <--------------------------------------------->
                            2 <-------------|-------------|---------------->
                            1. <--------------------------------------------->
                            2 <------(God without a body)-------|-------------|-----(God with a body)----------->

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by chatmaggot View Post
                              Why does change indicate imperfection? Can't that which is perfect change perfectly?
                              Again, intrinsic vs. extrinsic change. Unless that is repeatedly made clear, it will continue to be a long long long rabbit trail.
                              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                              ? Yep

                              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                                This could have been set up better to get us further down the road a bit more quickly. You know I agree with you on this point already.
                                Then you agree that communication and math are eternal and uncreated.

                                Comment

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