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Does Open Theism Question/dispute the Omniscience of God

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Know all things totally. Does not change his mind.
    Should I give you verses that say that God learned something, or that something occurred that He had not considered before?

    Or shall I give you verses that literally say God repented (turned away from)?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Derf View Post
      I knew you were going to say that.
      I have a reputation to maintain.

      Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
      Where is the evidence for a global flood?
      E≈mc2
      "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

      "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
      -Bob B.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
        The declaration declared a contradiction is not as you assume.
        I didn't assume anything; I presented a thought experiment.

        No man is capable of making a choice contrary to the strongest desire of his heart.
        And yet, if someone told him what he had no choice but to do, he would still have a choice.

        Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
        Where is the evidence for a global flood?
        E≈mc2
        "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

        "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
        -Bob B.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
          Know all things totally. Does not change his mind.
          Would you like to define "all" and "things", for clarity's sake?

          Is "repentance" a change of mind?
          Is "relenting" a change of mind?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            Should I give you verses that say that God learned something, or that something occurred that He had not considered before?

            Or shall I give you verses that literally say God repented (turned away from)?
            Yep, there are several to consider.

            We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
            They already know monsters exist.
            We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

            Comment


            • #21
              [MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION]: Where did you go?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Derf View Post
                [MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION]: Where did you go?
                I'm here. Just don't believe in omniscience the way that you do
                He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                Jim Elliot

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                  I'm here. Just don't believe in omniscience the way that you do
                  I understand that, but you didn't give any scripture for your view. This is where you get to show me where I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I need the correction, don't you think? If I'm right, then perhaps you need the correction. Either way, we should be able to learn from the exchange.
                  Last edited by Derf; August 13th, 2018, 05:16 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Derf View Post
                    You didn't give any scripture for your view.
                    We could start with the admission that "omniscience" is not in scripture.

                    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
                    Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                    E≈mc2
                    "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                    "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                    -Bob B.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Derf View Post
                      I understand that, but you didn't give any scripture for your view. This is where you get to show us me where I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I need the correction, don't you think? If I'm right, then perhaps you need the correction. Either way, we should be able to learn from the exchange.
                      Psalm 147:5
                      Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.

                      1 John 3:20
                      in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

                      Psalm 139:1-4
                      Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

                      Matthew 10:30
                      "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

                      Psalm 147:4
                      He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them.

                      Hebrews 4:13
                      And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

                      Psalm 139:1-3
                      O LORD, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.

                      Psalm 44:21
                      Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.

                      1 Chronicles 28:9
                      "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

                      Isaiah 40:28
                      Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable.

                      Isaiah 46:9-10
                      "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

                      1 Kings 8:39
                      then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men,

                      Acts 1:24
                      And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
                      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                      Jim Elliot

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                        We could start with the admission that "omniscience" is not in scripture.

                        Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
                        Sure it is. 1 John 3:20.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Ya know, it'd be easier if you post them in sequential order... That way if there are multiple passages from the same chapter, you can group them together.

                          Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                          1 Kings 8:39
                          then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men,
                          Please explain how this means that God, Who elsewhere in Scripture is said to have searched the hearts of men, knows everything about everything from every moment of time, instead of that God simply knows the nature of man, which is what the context indicates:

                          “When there is famine in the land, pestilence or blight or mildew, locusts or grasshoppers; when their enemy besieges them in the land of their cities; whatever plague or whatever sickness there is;whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by anyone, or by all Your people Israel, when each one knows the plague of his own heart, and spreads out his hands toward this temple:then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),that they may fear You all the days that they live in the land which You gave to our fathers. - 1 Kings 8:37-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

                          1 Chronicles 28:9
                          "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.
                          Not sure which version you're using...

                          But here's the NKJV with context:

                          “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.Consider now, for the Lord has chosen you to build a house for the sanctuary; be strong, and do it.” - 1 Chronicles 28:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

                          Please explain how this verse, again, does not mean that God simply searches men's hearts and has the ability to understand every intent, and instead means that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time.

                          Psalm 44:21
                          Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.
                          Same as above. Please explain how this means that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time.

                          Psalm 139:1-4
                          O LORD, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
                          Pretty sure I explained this one above in a previous post. Not 100% sure though.

                          God searched. Why would He need to search if He knows everything about everything from every moment in time?

                          Psalm 147:4-5
                          He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them.
                          Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.
                          Verse 4: God being the Creator of the stars can know everything about His creation.

                          Verse 5: Does it say His knowledge is infinite? or does it say His understanding? Because those are two very different things.

                          Let's say I have a huge library that contains every Chinese scroll and manuscript that has ever been written and ever will be written. I don't speak Chinese. I have no understanding of all the knowledge that is contained in those pages.

                          Isaiah 40:28
                          Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable.
                          Again, "understanding" is not the same as "knowledge."

                          Isaiah 46:9-10
                          "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
                          “Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors.Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. - Isaiah 46:8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV

                          Context helps.

                          BR, if someone sets up start and finish lines for a race, does that mean he will know exactly what will happen during the race? NO!

                          It just means that he has "declared" the end from the beginning.

                          As far as declaring from ancient times things that are not yet done... Is not God capable of planning ahead, and able to bring about things that He wants accomplished?

                          Matthew 10:30
                          "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
                          So, again, how does this say that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time?

                          Acts 1:24
                          And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
                          Same as above. Are you starting to see a pattern here...?

                          Hebrews 4:13
                          And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
                          God can't examine something and know everything about it? If God is "omniscient", then He has no reason to examine anything, because he's already aware of everything about what He would otherwise examine.

                          1 John 3:20
                          in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
                          Speaking of matters of the heart, which, as above, simply means that God knows how men think.

                          ----

                          Again, I ask:

                          Should I give you verses that say that God learned something, or that something occurred that He had not considered before?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            Ya know, it'd be easier if you post them in sequential order... That way if there are multiple passages from the same chapter, you can group them together.



                            Please explain how this means that God, Who elsewhere in Scripture is said to have searched the hearts of men, knows everything about everything from every moment of time, instead of that God simply knows the nature of man, which is what the context indicates:

                            “When there is famine in the land, pestilence or blight or mildew, locusts or grasshoppers; when their enemy besieges them in the land of their cities; whatever plague or whatever sickness there is;whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by anyone, or by all Your people Israel, when each one knows the plague of his own heart, and spreads out his hands toward this temple:then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),that they may fear You all the days that they live in the land which You gave to our fathers. - 1 Kings 8:37-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV



                            Not sure which version you're using...

                            But here's the NKJV with context:

                            “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.Consider now, for the Lord has chosen you to build a house for the sanctuary; be strong, and do it.” - 1 Chronicles 28:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

                            Please explain how this verse, again, does not mean that God simply searches men's hearts and has the ability to understand every intent, and instead means that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time.



                            Same as above. Please explain how this means that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time.



                            Pretty sure I explained this one above in a previous post. Not 100% sure though.

                            God searched. Why would He need to search if He knows everything about everything from every moment in time?



                            Verse 4: God being the Creator of the stars can know everything about His creation.

                            Verse 5: Does it say His knowledge is infinite? or does it say His understanding? Because those are two very different things.

                            Let's say I have a huge library that contains every Chinese scroll and manuscript that has ever been written and ever will be written. I don't speak Chinese. I have no understanding of all the knowledge that is contained in those pages.



                            Again, "understanding" is not the same as "knowledge."



                            “Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors.Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. - Isaiah 46:8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NKJV

                            Context helps.

                            BR, if someone sets up start and finish lines for a race, does that mean he will know exactly what will happen during the race? NO!

                            It just means that he has "declared" the end from the beginning.

                            As far as declaring from ancient times things that are not yet done... Is not God capable of planning ahead, and able to bring about things that He wants accomplished?



                            So, again, how does this say that God knows everything about everything from every moment in time?



                            Same as above. Are you starting to see a pattern here...?



                            God can't examine something and know everything about it? If God is "omniscient", then He has no reason to examine anything, because he's already aware of everything about what He would otherwise examine.



                            Speaking of matters of the heart, which, as above, simply means that God knows how men think.

                            ----

                            Again, I ask:

                            Should I give you verses that say that God learned something, or that something occurred that He had not considered before?
                            Sure, why not.
                            He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                            Jim Elliot

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              [MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] God says to Abraham "Now I know" that Abraham would do anything for Him.

                              But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.”And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” - Genesis 22:11-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV

                              God tells Jeremiah that it did not "come into My mind" that Israel would sacrifice their children to Molech.

                              And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’ - Jeremiah 32:35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV

                              Even Jesus "increased in wisdom."

                              And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men. - Luke 2:52 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV

                              Omniscient (aside from meaning "all-knowing,") also means "all-wise," or "having all wisdom."

                              If Jesus grew in wisdom, then He couldn't be "omniscient," He couldn't have all wisdom.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                These are all good verses, BR. Can we discuss them in some detail? Some, maybe all, are merely subsets of omniscience, like knowing the number of hairs on our heads. Or knowing that a sparrow has fallen to the ground (Matt 10:29, one you didn't include). Knowing numbers of hairs or fallen sparrows does not extrapolate to knowing everything, but it is evidence of God knowing something hard to know, or God being omniscient in a particular area.

                                The type of subset I will focus most on is the type that can be counted as present knowledge (like the hairs and sparrows). I'll mark the ones I think are present knowledge with a red {PK} at the end. While verses talking about present knowledge are glorifying to God, they aren't necessarily relevant to the discussion about God knowing everything about the future, which is where traditional theists and open theists part ways.

                                Another subset that might be represented is those that talk about future knowledge, where God knows something that's going to happen. Nobody denies that this is possible for at least some things, and the question then is whether it includes everything that's future. I'll mark those that I think are this type with a red {FK}. There are a couple I'm not sure about. I'll mark those with a red {NS}.

                                Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                                Psalm 147:5
                                Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. {FK}

                                1 John 3:20
                                in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. {PK}

                                Psalm 139:1-4
                                Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. {PK}

                                Matthew 10:30
                                "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. {PK}

                                Psalm 147:4
                                He counts the number of the stars; He gives names to all of them. {PK}

                                Hebrews 4:13
                                And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. {PK}

                                Psalm 139:1-3
                                O LORD, You have searched me and known me. {PK}
                                You know when I sit down and when I rise up; {PK}
                                You understand my thought from afar. {NS}
                                You scrutinize my path {FK}
                                and my lying down, {PK}
                                And are intimately acquainted with all my ways. {NS}

                                Psalm 44:21
                                Would not God find this out? {FK}
                                For He knows the secrets of the heart. {PK}

                                1 Chronicles 28:9
                                "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, {PK}
                                and understands every intent of the thoughts {PK}
                                If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever. {PK}

                                Isaiah 40:28
                                Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable. {PK}

                                Isaiah 46:9-10
                                "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; {FK}

                                1 Kings 8:39
                                then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men, {PK}

                                Acts 1:24
                                And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen {PK}
                                You will likely disagree with some of my assessments. If so, please tell me which ones and why.

                                My point here is to eliminate the present knowledge verses, so that we have fewer we need to deal with. Then it will be easier to discuss the future knowledge or "not sure" verses. I figure "not sure" allows those to be future knowledge for the discussion, anyway.

                                Comment

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