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Does Open Theism Question/dispute the Omniscience of God

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  • Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
    He does not use all His power, or Satin would be dead! There is much in God's plan no one knows.
    If I have the power to paint my chair green, and the power to paint my chair blue, and the power to paint my chair purple, am I "not using all my power" if I choose to paint it yellow and only yellow? Or if I paint it yellow today, and green tomorrow, and plan to paint it every color of the rainbow in turn the day after that?

    God has said he will destroy the devil, but in the judgment (not today, at that future time).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
      If I think one thought, and then later change my mind about that thought, those two events are related to each other by an abstract quality that we know of as time. One thought is before the other, one thought is after, therefore time exists. Time is not merely a physical measurement.
      No. Time is relative to mass and space, this is physics.
      So, what?

      believe it!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
        If I have the power to paint my chair green, and the power to paint my chair blue, and the power to paint my chair purple, am I "not using all my power" if I choose to paint it yellow and only yellow? Or if I paint it yellow today, and green tomorrow, and plan to paint it every color of the rainbow in turn the day after that?

        God has said he will destroy the devil, but in the judgment (not today, at that future time).
        You are using your will to act. You think, then act, as we see because you know, or pondered the colour beforehand.
        So, what?

        believe it!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
          No. Time is relative to mass and space, this is physics.
          I think you're confusing the movement of clocks with time.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
            No. Time is relative to mass and space, this is physics.
            So spirit beings cannot think?

            Isaiah 14:13 KJV
            (13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


            There is both a before and an after of these thoughts of his heart, therefore time.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
              I would say God has infinite power, not that He has all power.
              I really like the idea of all-capable. It allows for the comparative idea of power (more so than any other) as well as the absolute idea of ability, both to accomplish what He wants to do.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                Not "distance."

                A "conceptualized" distance. Event A and event B are separated by time. So time is defined as the conceptualized distance between events.

                It's not a real distance. That's for measuring between physical entities.

                Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
                I believe I agree. It is merely a conceptualization of movement and change of physical things.
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                  Just puling up the results of "square definition" from Google

                  square
                  skwer/
                  noun
                  1.
                  • a plane figure with four equal straight sides and four right angles.


                  Other dimensions are specifically excluded by the definition of square, as well as consisting of anything but four equal sides and four right angels. It's not heresy to admit that there are such concepts as absurdities and paradox, which are obviously not included in the phrase "with God all things are possible."
                  I'm not sure such is excluded, just not in our parameters of or for discussion. Some people conceive things in ways that are true, but different, than we experience or understand them. Many metaphysical concepts come to us this way. Quantum mechanics is this way.

                  Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                  A healthy recognition and understanding of this concept will help guard against the skeptic's attacks of philosophy. God cannot lie, God cannot create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, God cannot force someone to love him of their own free will, God cannot create creatures with free will yet know what their heart will ultimately decide before they are even created, yet God remains omnipotent and knows all things.
                  It was actually Hawking that said 'philosophy is dead.' It wasn't said by those thinking outside the box (another way of grasping these concepts).
                  My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                  Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                  Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                  Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                  No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                  Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                  ? Yep

                  Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                  ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                  Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                    I would say God has infinite power, not that He has all power.
                    Good thought BUT Genesis 17:1 etc.
                    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                    ? Yep

                    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
                      Time is relative to mass and space.

                      Suppose a farmer has a low pressure water well pump and needs a water tank it irrigate his field. To build the right size of tank we need to find the "delta T", with respect to pressure, or dx (dp). We know as the tank empties, as the water level goes down, the pressure decreases, so, we need to build the tank high enough to have the farmer's field irrigated fully, before the pressure is too low to move water though the piping system.

                      To do this we find a differential equation, which solves the time-pressure problem, then we can build the tank.

                      My point is time is as much a property as mass, ( the water) and space (the size of the tank)
                      I agree. I think Stripe's point was that time is a conceptualization, like an 'inch' and a 'millimeter.' The measurements are accurate enough, but they are made up concepts, normalized or agreed upon by society thus they are a bit better set in our minds and thoughts as 'physical' measures. We then associate things like rulers and watches to these arbitrary but agreed upon measures. The measures themselves are not absolute, nor are the things being measured. Rather we think more concrete sequentially about them because we are all very familiar with them but they are naught but contrived concepts that are used only to be more consistent in our daily lives. Even our watches are off. They don't really keep track of 'time,' just help us get through our day according to schedules.
                      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                      ? Yep

                      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                        I agree. I think Stripe's point was that time is a conceptualization, like an 'inch' and a 'millimeter.' The measurements are accurate enough, but they are made up concepts, normalized or agreed upon by society thus they are a bit better set in our minds and thoughts as 'physical' measures. We then associate things like rulers and watches to these arbitrary but agreed upon measures. The measures themselves are not absolute, nor are the things being measured. Rather we think more concrete sequentially about them because we are all very familiar with them but they are naught but contrived concepts that are used only to be more consistent in our daily lives. Even our watches are off. They don't really keep track of 'time,' just help us get through our day according to schedules.
                        What they keep track of, perhaps in-accurately, is the passage of time, as we understand it. But you're right that they don't help us with an absolute understanding of time. The bible offers us the idea of a "beginning", but what is it the beginning of? Time? Or just the things associated with our world/universe.

                        When we say God holds the oceans in His hand (Is 40:12), we compare the largeness of God to the oceans. When we say God is the ancient of days (Dan 7:9), we compare the age of God with our expectation of death after some years (or the length of the world's existence with His). If He never had a beginning, such a concept can help, but doesn't fully realize the magnitude of God's existence. It's a concept we have no concept of.

                        It's understandable, then, if we say things like "outside of time", but such a concept is as foreign to us as something/someone who has always existed. We can't describe either, and the bible doesn't use the "outside of time" description, at least that I know of.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Derf View Post
                          What they keep track of, perhaps in-accurately, is the passage of time, as we understand it. But you're right that they don't help us with an absolute understanding of time. The bible offers us the idea of a "beginning", but what is it the beginning of? Time? Or just the things associated with our world/universe.
                          In the beginning ... of our story. Because John 1 has its beginning before that.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                            In the beginning ... of our story. Because John 1 has its beginning before that.
                            Oh, I think John 1 doesn't go back any further than Gen 1. At least it doesn't have to to be accurate.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                              I think you're confusing the movement of clocks with time.
                              I appreciate Enyart's discussion on the subject, but disagree. I disagreed in that thread as well. I do believe, however, he is correct that gravity affects clocks, but our perception of time can and does change at different points in our lives. A thousand years has never been a day, nor a day a thousand years to me, nor even 'felt' like it. That is God's alone. There is just no way Bob or me, or anybody else can ever relate. It is much more than merely an 'exaggeration.' I realize the Open Theist's whole paradigm is caught up in 'open' premise that drives the theology, but if it is wrong on even one point, the whole things falls and Open Theism isn't true. All of Open Theism rests on God being temporal. If He is not, there'd be no such thing as Open Theism.
                              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                              ? Yep

                              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                                I appreciate Enyart's discussion on the subject, but disagree. I disagreed in that thread as well. I do believe, however, he is correct that gravity affects clocks, but our perception of time can and does change at different points in our lives. A thousand years has never been a day, nor a day a thousand years to me, nor even 'felt' like it. That is God's alone. There is just no way Bob or me, or anybody else can ever relate. It is much more than merely an 'exaggeration.' I realize the Open Theist's whole paradigm is caught up in 'open' premise that drives the theology, but if it is wrong on even one point, the whole things falls and Open Theism isn't true. All of Open Theism rests on God being temporal. If He is not, there'd be no such thing as Open Theism.
                                This could as easily be turned around to say that settled theism rests on God knowing the future exhaustively, which begs the question. And either one could be used as a starting assumption, as long as we allow our starting assumption to fall if real contradictions arise. I submit that the number of contradictions is significantly greater with settled theism than with open theism. And the contradictions with open theism are "apparent" contradictions that result from over applying the text beyond what it is meant to apply, while the contradictions with settled theism are hard and fast and have resulted in the Arminian-Calvinism dichotomy, and possibly the Roman Catholic-Eastern orthodox dichotomy (I know far less about the RC-EO dichotomy, but saw an EO description one time that led me to think this).

                                When I've mentioned the idea of open theism to religious people, including one muslim, the reaction is to explain that God isn't like that, but with little evidence to offer except a personal idea of what God must be like. This, to me, is an indication of one of two things: 1) a concept of God that is provided inherently to every human by God Himself, or 2) a concept of God that comes from a human source.

                                In the case of #1, in every other instance of such a supposition, Calvinism would claim that even if it were there at one time, the total depravity doctrine would have it corrupted so that we can't trust it.

                                In the case of #2, we can't trust it because it isn't a revelation from God about Himself.

                                Both of these cases, of course, should drive us back to the text of scripture to verify the truth of the doctrine anyway, which leads me back to the contradiction discussion. It would seem worthwhile to compare the contradictions trotted out by each camp against the other, and the resolutions offered in return.

                                Comment

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