Theology Club: John 6:64

BrianJOrr

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Has there been an open theist response on this forum to this verse? I see it as a complete contradiction to the openness perspective on foreknowledge. I have tried the search function but nothing has matched yet.

John 6:64 - "'But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)"

I think Boyd's treatment is quite shallow, missing the fuller points of this passage and was hoping to find a more detailed response.

Thanks
 

patrick jane

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Has there been an open theist response on this forum to this verse? I see it as a complete contradiction to the openness perspective on foreknowledge. I have tried the search function but nothing has matched yet.

John 6:64 - "'But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)"

I think Boyd's treatment is quite shallow, missing the fuller points of this passage and was hoping to find a more detailed response.

Thanks

for me, that kinda gets into pre-destination, although we must know that God Knows. i take that to mean, God foreknows who will be receptive to His Word, Spirit and Incarnation Of The Word In Jesus Christ. as far as "open", then we can run the gamut, WHICH WILL lead you back to the Bible, IMO. i tried other lines of thought in detail, at length. they all end at God. so, then we must read Paul's letters to the Churches, all Bible Wisdom is contained therein - :patrol:
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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The beginning of what?
John 6:64 means either ‘from the beginning’ of Jesus’ ministry...or possibly, as in John 1:1, ‘from the beginning’ absolutely.

AMR
 
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patrick jane

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Has there been an open theist response on this forum to this verse? I see it as a complete contradiction to the openness perspective on foreknowledge. I have tried the search function but nothing has matched yet.

John 6:64 - "'But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)"

I think Boyd's treatment is quite shallow, missing the fuller points of this passage and was hoping to find a more detailed response.

Thanks

sorry bo and amr, i responded to John 1:1, not John 6:64. John 6:64, may speak more to His Ministry
 

musterion

Well-known member
From the beginning of their following Him. "From the beginning of His ministry," before the point they came to Him, is substantially no different than from the beginning of creation or earlier.
 

Word based mystic

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a dialogue review of the issue here.

Christ being the firstborn of all creation

Also created the material world.


The Father whom is Spirit has omniscience and is not subject to time and matter rather all creation is subject to His will.

The Word limited His omniscience as the first born of creation, to facilitate
the creation of angels and his created human children.

No Father or creator would while full of love knowingly create a child knowing from the foundation of creation that that child would end up in hell being tormented. Would you. Could you to your children? And how much more is His love greater than ours.

So only the Father can see beyond eternity the end result and who would end up in Christ.

Christ, with the hope that all men would be saved creates the souls of men.

This allows men to be created within the Christs character of love and mercy
affirming the scripture 1 tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

note the word (desires)

also 2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

notice the above (wishing) as well as (all)

This allows the creative process Christ did to happen with love as well as the desiring of all created men to be saved.

there is much more I could bring up to discuss the limiting of ones own omniscience while being in a 3 dimensional material world.

But the loving creation of individual men from the foundation of the world as well as Christs (desire) and (wish) that they all be saved goes hand in glove with Christ being the sacrifice for that possibility.
He predestines us all for salvation even in his desire and wishing and (will), this allows for ((Whosoever)),
but not all will believe and embrace that offer.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
So it couldn't be from the beginning of their following Him?

If we assume Jesus only knew from when He called them, then what about the Father? He was the one doing the giving (to Christ). Was He saying "whoops!"?

Jesus, after He had washed the disciples' feet, said this :

I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 13:18

In fulfilling Psalm 41:9, Jesus recognized Judas as he who would betray Him. And the first part of the verse seems to be rather strong wording that Jesus knew specifically who He was choosing when He chose the disciples. I have to believe Jesus knew at least from the beginning of His own ministry who He would have to choose.
 

Lighthouse

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If we assume Jesus only knew from when He called them, then what about the Father? He was the one doing the giving (to Christ). Was He saying "whoops!"?
Why do you assume God didn't do it on purpose?

Jesus, after He had washed the disciples' feet, said this :

I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 13:18

In fulfilling Psalm 41:9, Jesus recognized Judas as he who would betray Him. And the first part of the verse seems to be rather strong wording that Jesus knew specifically who He was choosing when He chose the disciples. I have to believe Jesus knew at least from the beginning of His own ministry who He would have to choose.
Just to clarify, you are saying that He knew He would have to choose one person to follow Him that would betray Him?
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Why do you assume God didn't do it on purpose?


Just to clarify, you are saying that He knew He would have to choose one person to follow Him that would betray Him?

I'm saying Jesus knew from the beginning of His ministry (if not before):

1. That He was to choose someone who would fulfill the scripture.
2. That the Father was to give Him someone specific.
3. That He knew - specifically - who this was before even seeing him.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I do. I assume God knew specifically what would have to happen long before Jesus appeared and determined what and who.

Amen.

Psalm 41:9

Of course God knew and God predicted and God fulfilled and God accomplishes (without fail) all His good purposes and pleasure, in all things.

Including the role designated by God that Judas Iscariot was to play, in the historical out-workings of all the above . . .

Any conception of God that does not acknowledge such truths, is simply an unbelieving denial of God, substituted with various idolatriesconsisting of lesser imaginary concepts of His reality, altogether!
 

musterion

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Did Judas ever have the genuine opportunity to repent and not be the one through whom prophecy was fulfilled?
 

Lighthouse

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I'm saying Jesus knew from the beginning of His ministry (if not before):

1. That He was to choose someone who would fulfill the scripture.
2. That the Father was to give Him someone specific.
3. That He knew - specifically - who this was before even seeing him.
These are all assumptions. Especially the last one.

I say especially the last one because the other to make sense based on what we now know. The last one is unnecessary; He did need to know who it would be before meeting Judas.

I do. I assume God knew specifically what would have to happen long before Jesus appeared and determined what and who.
It is the who that is the worst assumption, based on the evidence.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
These are all assumptions. Especially the last one.

I say especially the last one because the other to make sense based on what we now know. The last one is unnecessary; He did need to know who it would be before meeting Judas.


It is the who that is the worst assumption, based on the evidence.

I'm pretty sure the "knew" implies specific, personal (fore)knowledge.

Assuming that it isn't the case - and then building a theology around that sort of assumption - to me seems dangerous.
 

TIPlatypus

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I reckon that Jesus was just very wise and discerning of peoples manners and thoughts. After all, he of all people must know what his own followers are like. I reckon that he saw through the shallow believers the minute he met them.

Reading John 6:64 can lead to this interpretation or your interpretation or perhaps some others. It neither aids nor abets the open perspective on things. I would not use this passage to say "Therefore the open view is true."
 
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