Theology Club: can ya help a brother out

[Tambora]

Are there not 2 regathering, 2 temples built, and 2 wars of armies attacking Israel?

The impression I get is the following outline.

1. Israel regathers at least partially into the land and builds a temple the antichrist sets up the abomination of desolation. This regathering could possibly be orchestrated through the antichrist's false hope of peace.
The false peace is disrupted by the abomination of desolation and great tribulation is poured out on Israel and they are told to flee. Another scattering of them.

2. Christ comes and defeats the armies against Israel. Takes his seat on the throne and builds the kingdom and new temple for the millennium. Peace and safety for 1000 years as Satan is bound for that 1000 years.

3. Satan is loosed after the 1000 years and gathers another army to attack Israel. Defeated permanently.

Sounds about right.
A gathering of them to the anti-christ. (A false peace and security.) John 5:43 comes to mind.
A gathering of them to Christ. (A true peace and security.)

Another thing I get mixed up about is how those mortals that are still living after that 2nd war after the millennium when Satan is loosed will receive a glorified body for eternity. Are they killed or finally all die and then resurrected or are they changed in a twinkling of the eye as we are for the rapture?

Hmmm.
See there, you asked a question I had not even considered before. I don't have an answer as to what manner everyone alive (still mortal) will receive a glorified body.
Maybe you can figure that one out for me!

 

[Tambora]

Really? Evil and good dwelling together? Having their unglorified bodies being healed? :think:


Maybe this is why I doubted the thousand year reign in the past. Perhaps that thousand years is a day?

Seems like there would have to be both good and evil during the millennial reign, or else there would be nothing to judge during that time.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then there will be people living on the earth who are still in the flesh...during that thousand years? This is the part I'm really confused about.

Yes, there will be some people during the 1000 year reign of the Lord Jesus on the earth who will still be in their physical bodies. But initially only the saved will make up the kingdom (Jn.3:5). But there will be some people born of those who remain in their physical bodies who will rebel against the LORD (Rev.20:9).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hey, Jerry, got any comments on 'the great commission' given to the twelve with regard to water baptism? If that program had continued, would every person on earth who believed and repented been water baptized?

The rite of water baptism served to "make ready a people prepared for the Lord" so that they "might serve Him...in holiness and righteousness " (Lk.1:17,74,75).

The believers who were baptized in water were more or less pledging to cease their sinful lifestyle so that they could serve Him in holiness and righteousness.

However, when those who will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air and then later return to the earth with Him they will all be in glorious bodies like the Lord's glorious body and they will be equipped to serve Him in holiness and righteousness. Therefore, for them there will be no reason to submit to the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

 

[glorydaz]

Seems like there would have to be both good and evil during the millennial reign, or else there would be nothing to judge during that time.

Yeah, unless they were only judging which is the better way. :chuckle:

Seriously, Tam, I have gone round and round over the Millennium and Revelation, and it's just become a big blur to me. Once the Lord takes me.....I go blank. LOL

What in the world could possibly exist, and how many could possibly survive the bowls of wrath?

 

[LoneStar]

Yeah, unless they were only judging which is the better way. :chuckle:

Seriously, Tam, I have gone round and round over the Millennium and Revelation, and it's just become a big blur to me. Once the Lord takes me.....I go blank. LOL

What in the world could possibly exist, and how many could possibly survive the bowls of wrath?

Revelation 6:8 KJV
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.





There's 1/4 part of man killed. I googled the population of earth and it is around 7.5 billion. Let's round it to 8 giving room for more till the wrath.

Don't know how many will be gone at the rapture. Let's say after the rapture there are 7 billion. 1/4 of them are killed leaving about 5.25 billion.



Revelation 9:15 KJV
(15) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.


There's 1/3 of what is left (5.25 billion) of men. That leaves 3.5 billion. That would leave less than 1/2 of the population still alive. If the great tribulation is of the 3.5 years of the 7 years, more than 1/2 of the world's population will be killed within 3.5 years. I would say that will be the greatest time of destruction as the world has ever seen.

 

[steko]

Yeah, unless they were only judging which is the better way. :chuckle:

Seriously, Tam, I have gone round and round over the Millennium and Revelation, and it's just become a big blur to me. Once the Lord takes me.....I go blank. LOL

What in the world could possibly exist, and how many could possibly survive the bowls of wrath?

I thought Christ was gonna' rule this earth with a rod of iron after He returns. If there's no evil, why the rod?

And...what about the promise of the twelve tribes restoration back to the land under the rule of Messiah reigning from the throne of David?
Where and when does that happen?

 

[LoneStar]

I thought Christ was gonna' rule this earth with a rod of iron after He returns. If there's no evil, why the rod?

And...what about the promise of the twelve tribes restoration back to the land under the rule of Messiah reigning from the throne of David?
Where and when does that happen?

Makes sense there would need to be something to judge. Are they judging for salvation into eternal life or judging the legal social laws of the land?

 

[patrick jane]

I thought Christ was gonna' rule this earth with a rod of iron after He returns. If there's no evil, why the rod?

And...what about the promise of the twelve tribes restoration back to the land under the rule of Messiah reigning from the throne of David?
Where and when does that happen?

Revelation 10:7 KJV -

 

[steko]

Revelation 10:7 KJV -

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[steko]

Makes sense there would need to be something to judge. Are they judging for salvation into eternal life or judging the legal social laws of the land?

The twelve apostles will judge pertaining to the laws of the land for the twelve tribes.

Eternal life, now...that's the Lord's judgement.

 

[LoneStar]

The twelve apostles will judge pertaining to the laws of the land for the twelve tribes.

Eternal life, now...that's the Lord's judgement.

Am I correct that there will be death during the millennium kingdom even though they will live to ripe old ages in peace and health? At some point all mortal life has to end when everyone still alive would have to die to be raised in a glorified body. Do you know of verses that give a hint of when that time is or what it is that finally kills everyone still alive?

What blocks my brain from visioning what the outcome will be like is everything is going fine during the mill kingdom. Happy fruitful lives all around. So what happens when the time comes God has to tell all those happy lives they now have to all die and how is God going to do that? I do not mean that in a disrespectful way, only trying to ask it in a simplified basic way. Or am i only assuming there comes a time when everyone must die and mortal live continues with the same promise of a glorified body when they do die? My questions may sound stupid, and they may very well be, but i am sincere in seeking answers.

 

[patrick jane]

Am I correct that there will be death during the millennium kingdom even though they will live to ripe old ages in peace and health? At some point all mortal life has to end when everyone still alive would have to die to be raised in a glorified body. Do you know of verses that give a hint of when that time is or what it is that finally kills everyone still alive?

What blocks my brain from visioning what the outcome will be like is everything is going fine during the mill kingdom. Happy fruitful lives all around. So what happens when the time comes God has to tell all those happy lives they now have to all die and how is God going to do that? I do not mean that in a disrespectful way, only trying to ask it in a simplified basic way. Or am i only assuming there comes a time when everyone must die and mortal live continues with the same promise of a glorified body when they do die? My questions may sound stupid, and they may very well be, but i am sincere in seeking answers.

The main purpose of Jesus’ 1,000-year reign is to fulfill the prophecies given to Israel and the promises made to Jesus, the nations, and the whole earth. God’s covenants were voluntary and one-sided. He promised He would bless Israel and restore the world in specific ways, and He will.

 

[Danoh]

Am I correct that there will be death during the millennium kingdom even though they will live to ripe old ages in peace and health? At some point all mortal life has to end when everyone still alive would have to die to be raised in a glorified body. Do you know of verses that give a hint of when that time is or what it is that finally kills everyone still alive?

What blocks my brain from visioning what the outcome will be like is everything is going fine during the mill kingdom. Happy fruitful lives all around. So what happens when the time comes God has to tell all those happy lives they now have to all die and how is God going to do that? I do not mean that in a disrespectful way, only trying to ask it in a simplified basic way. Or am i only assuming there comes a time when everyone must die and mortal live continues with the same promise of a glorified body when they do die? My questions may sound stupid, and they may very well be, but i am sincere in seeking answers.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Rom. 5:8
Prov. 27:17
Acts 17:11,12

 

[glorydaz]

Am I correct that there will be death during the millennium kingdom even though they will live to ripe old ages in peace and health? At some point all mortal life has to end when everyone still alive would have to die to be raised in a glorified body. Do you know of verses that give a hint of when that time is or what it is that finally kills everyone still alive?

What blocks my brain from visioning what the outcome will be like is everything is going fine during the mill kingdom. Happy fruitful lives all around. So what happens when the time comes God has to tell all those happy lives they now have to all die and how is God going to do that? I do not mean that in a disrespectful way, only trying to ask it in a simplified basic way. Or am i only assuming there comes a time when everyone must die and mortal live continues with the same promise of a glorified body when they do die? My questions may sound stupid, and they may very well be, but i am sincere in seeking answers.

Maybe it will be like when the Lord comes for us (those who are still alive).....changed, in the twinkling of an eye.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

 

[LoneStar]

The main purpose of Jesus’ 1,000-year reign is to fulfill the prophecies given to Israel and the promises made to Jesus, the nations, and the whole earth. God’s covenants were voluntary and one-sided. He promised He would bless Israel and restore the world in specific ways, and He will.

I would say so. Just trying to lay out the sequence of the events leading up to when all mortal life must end if indeed there really is an end of all mortal life coming. If all mortal life is to end, there must be verses predicting it will happen.

 

[LoneStar]

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Rom. 5:8
Prov. 27:17
Acts 17:11,12

I can't tell the point you are driving at by quoting those verses. Could you throw me a bone?

 

[LoneStar]

Maybe it will be like when the Lord comes for us (those who are still alive).....changed, in the twinkling of an eye.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

I have thought the same. Could be, I'm not sure. The only time I know of that formula is used is for the rapture. I presume that sets a precedence of how God works. Seems to be making an argument from silence though. If all mortal life is supposed to end I would think there would be a statement of that in scripture somewhere. Keep me in mind if you run across a verse stating how and when all mortal life ends. The curiosity is killing me!

 

[LoneStar]

Another thing you good folks could help me with is differentiating between the war of all nations coming against Israel before the mil and the same happening after the mil. From what I gather, if correct, there are two areas in focus for a war from all nations. Megiddo and Jezreel. Are these two different places or the same place? Which verses describe the war before the mil and which verses describe the war after the mil?

 

[Danoh]

I can't tell the point you are driving at by quoting those verses. Could you throw me a bone?

Study out, towards laying out in outline form for yourself; those similar words, phrases and themes in the passages I posted.

Look for recurrent patterns (patterns that repeat) towards what they begin to point to.

Case in point, among the things the passages I posted point to are that physical man will "live for ever," and that there will be a continuing "increase" in population, etc.

In short, the PHYSICAL will not end.

Just a matter of studying out, when attempting to study out any subject, both similar and closely related words, phrases, and themes, and their recurrent patterns for what they all point to as a whole.

While I'm at it; try to begin to break yourself away from newbie tendencies like "well maybe this passage is talking about" or "perhaps it is talking about" or "well, what if I were to read this passage this way, or maybe from this other angle..."

At the risk of offending; I'd suggest googling for yourself a pdf on Basic Grammar towards reminding yourself how to approach attempting to extract the intended meaning of a writer's words through how any writer uses various word structure forms beyond who, what, when, where, why, and how.

Rom. 5:8
Prov. 27:17
Acts 17:11,12