Announcement

Collapse

Creation Science Rules

This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective.
Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed.
1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team
2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.
See more
See less

Young Earth or Old?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    The following is an outline concerning the creation and what followed:
    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).

    When the LORD created the earth He laid its foundation:
    "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Heb.1:10).

    The sons of God, the angels, were there at the time when the foundation was laid:
    "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job.38:4-7).

    The earth was created to be inhabited:
    "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).

    But later the earth became without form and therefore had no foundation and was no longer inhabitable:

    "Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos"
    (Gen.1:1-2).

    Therefore, the result of the sin of the angels who rebelled against LORD was that the earth became uninhabitable even though originally it was created to be inhabited. Then some time later the LORD began to renew and refurnish the earth so that it could be inhabited by man. And that process took six days.
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; March 28th, 2019, 04:29 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
      Therefore, the result of the sin of the angels who rebelled against LORD was that the earth became uninhabitable even though originally it was created to be inhabited. Then some time later the LORD began to renew and refurnish the earth so that it could be inhabited by man. And that process took six days.
      nope

      Lucifer was placed in the garden of Eden with Adam & Eve by God , Lucifer fell after the creation of man

      Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
      Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        The following is an outline concerning the creation and what followed:
        "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).

        When the LORD created the earth He laid its foundation:
        "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Heb.1:10).

        The sons of God, the angels, were there at the time when the foundation was laid:
        "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job.38:4-7).

        The earth was created to be inhabited:
        "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).

        But later the earth became without form and therefore had no foundation and was no longer inhabitable:

        "Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos"
        (Gen.1:1-2).

        Therefore, the result of the sin of the angels who rebelled against LORD was that the earth became uninhabitable even though originally it was created to be inhabited. Then some time later the LORD began to renew and refurnish the earth so that it could be inhabited by man. And that process took six days.


        How many times are you going to repeat yourself, Jerry?

        Repeating your position countless times does not make your position any less false.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
          How many times are you going to repeat yourself, Jerry?

          Repeating your position countless times does not make your position any less false.
          I didn't repeat myself because I added several new verses which support my view. For instance, here we read that in the beginning the LORD laid the foundation of the earth:

          "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands"
          (Heb.1:10).

          According to your ideas even though the LORD laid the foundation of the earth at the beginning it was without form. You say that in the beginning it was made in the following way:
          "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).

          According to your confused ideas the LORD laid the foundation or the base of the earth even though the earth was without form.

          Your ideas are getting stranger and stranger!
          Last edited by Jerry Shugart; March 25th, 2019, 03:37 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
            I didn't repeat myself because I added several new verses which support my view. For instance, here we read that in the beginning the LORD laid the foundation of the earth:

            "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands"
            (Heb.1:10).
            And? So what?

            According to your ideas even though the LORD laid the foundation of the earth at the beginning it was without form. You say that in the beginning it was made in the following way:
            "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:2).
            Because it was...

            According to your confused ideas the LORD laid the foundation or the base of the earth even though the earth was without form.
            Please explain why you are trying to force two verses to contradict one another.

            Your ideas are getting stranger and stranger!
            This coming from someone who rejects the plain reading of scripture, and who tries to force scripture to contradict itself, and who injects his own beliefs into what scripture says.

            Jerry, if you can't accept scripture as-is, then you'll never understand it.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
              The following is an outline concerning the creation and what followed:
              "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).

              ......

              The earth was created to be inhabited:

              .....

              But later the earth became without form and therefore had no foundation and was no longer inhabitable:

              .....

              Therefore, the result of the sin of the angels who rebelled against LORD was that the earth became uninhabitable even though originally it was created to be inhabited. Then some time later the LORD began to renew and refurnish the earth so that it could be inhabited by man. And that process took six days.



              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                Nope. That's your position.
                Well, you might want to provide some scripture to support your position

                God's ways are perfect thus He did not create the heaven and the earth without form and void.
                "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                Pro scripture = Protestant

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                  you said: "At parochial grade school, I was taught that God is perfect. Since God is perfect, everything he does is perfect. "

                  you have to prove there was someone else to cause imperfection
                  how did it become imperfect without anyone else to cause it to become imperfect ?



                  from you
                  you said: "At parochial grade school, I was taught that God is perfect. Since God is perfect, everything he does is perfect. "

                  Well, I could do that, but since he assumed that there was no one else before I replied with that question, it seems he is first in line to supply proof for his statement.

                  Since he has no support for his rebuttal to my question, I submit that I can wait for him to support his position first.

                  When he supports his position with scripture then we have something to discuss
                  "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                  "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                  Pro scripture = Protestant

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    The following is an outline concerning the creation and what followed:
                    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen.1:1).

                    When the LORD created the earth He laid its foundation:
                    "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands" (Heb.1:10).

                    The sons of God, the angels, were there at the time when the foundation was laid:
                    "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job.38:4-7).

                    The earth was created to be inhabited:
                    "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa.45:18).

                    But later the earth became without form and therefore had no foundation and was no longer inhabitable:

                    "Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos"
                    (Gen.1:1-2).

                    Therefore, the result of the sin of the angels who rebelled against LORD was that the earth became uninhabitable even though originally it was created to be inhabited. Then some time later the LORD began to renew and refurnish the earth so that it could be inhabited by man. And that process took six days.
                    It is clear from the preponderance of scripture that original heaven and earth of Genesis 1:1 was subject to cataclysmic destruction between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2

                    Without getting into the about a dozen other passages that are pertinent let me add a little of what can be learned from scripture about Gen 1

                    I get a lot of guff for being a follower of The Way International, yet I find no one who has done their homework like they have.

                    Well, I expect the following will help fill some details

                    A verse I have yet to see posted about Genesis 1

                    Jeremiah 4:23

                    I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

                    God showed by revelation to Jeremiah the state of the earth before God started restoring it in Genesis 1:3

                    God is light and in him is no darkness at all, I John 1:5

                    God would have included the creation of light in Genesis 1:1. Why did is it not found until Genesis 1:3? Because whatever light had been part of the original creation was extinguished by a cataclymic event. Call it a "big destruction"

                    When the dragon and his angels were cast down to earth was that a cotton ball landing on a pile of marshmallows?

                    Revelation 12:7-9,12-13,15-17

                    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

                    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

                    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

                    It is this war that caused the original creation of Genesis 1:1 to fall into the ruin described in Genesis 1:2

                    God makes clear who this was that was the evil that was the source of this cataclysm, "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,"

                    This dragon... is in direct opposition to God and to His son.

                    John 10:10 makes that abundantly clear.

                    Who steals, kills and destroys? the thief known by many other names as well as we have seen.

                    Without getting into all the passages that pertain, Lucifer was the angle of light that rebelled against God and was cast down. The dragon, the destroyer destroyed the perfection of Genesis 1:1, thus God brooded over the waters and began the restoration in Genesis 1:3
                    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                    Pro scripture = Protestant

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Glad to see a version recognizes that.
                      "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                      "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                      Pro scripture = Protestant

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        "Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos" (Gen.1:1-2; CLV).
                        Thank you, I am glad to see that there is version that recognizes that.
                        "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                        "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                        Pro scripture = Protestant

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                          Your position, Oatsy, is that God is incompetent, or that He created something in vain, trying to create something that was perfect.

                          Incompetent, in that He could not make anything without it being formless and void, which renders Isaiah 45:18 false, and then for the next untold number of years, it remained that way.
                          OR
                          He created in vain, in that somehow he created a perfect universe, but it fell into disarray, which meant He had to start over again.

                          Whereas all we YEers have to do is simply read the text as is.

                          God created, then formed that which was unformed and void, and made it to be habitable for His creation.



                          Perfect simply means complete in every aspect.

                          God created matter and the universe, then formed it over 6 days to be inhabited, just like Isaiah 45:18 says. God called it very good.



                          This is day one:

                          In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV
                          Clearly you have not read what I posted seeing that you out and out contradict what I said.

                          If you handle scripture with the same opposition to what is clearly written, then it is not profitable for me to bother replying to the rest of your post.
                          "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                          "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                          Pro scripture = Protestant

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            And? So what?
                            According to your ideas the LORD laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning but the earth was without form.

                            What kind of foundation was that?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              According to your ideas the LORD laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning but the earth was without form.

                              What kind of foundation was that?
                              A good one.

                              One on which to build the crust of the earth.

                              And He laid the foundation AFTER He created the material for it.

                              "In the beginning" doesn't necessarily mean "the very first step."

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
                                Well, you might want to provide some scripture to support your position
                                Genesis-Revelation.

                                God's ways are perfect thus He did not create the heaven and the earth without form and void.
                                Uh. What?

                                That's literally what Genesis 1:1-2 say.

                                When you add to what scripture says, you tend to reject what it says explicitly.

                                Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
                                Well, I could do that, but since he assumed that there was no one else before I replied with that question, it seems he is first in line to supply proof for his statement.
                                No, the burden of proof is on you to show that God was NOT alone in the beginning, seeing that Scripture does not indicate that there were other creatures besides Himself at that point.

                                Since he has no support for his rebuttal to my question, I submit that I can wait for him to support his position first.

                                When he supports his position with scripture then we have something to discuss
                                Onus probandi.

                                You're the one asserting that God was not alone at creation, you're the one who needs to show the evidence.

                                Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
                                It is clear from the preponderance of scripture that original heaven and earth of Genesis 1:1 was subject to cataclysmic destruction between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2
                                Now you're just question begging.

                                You need to show, with scripture, that the earth suffered such.

                                Without getting into the about a dozen other passages that are pertinent let me add a little of what can be learned from scripture about Gen 1

                                I get a lot of guff for being a follower of The Way International, yet I find no one who has done their homework like they have.

                                Well, I expect the following will help fill some details


                                A verse I have yet to see posted about Genesis 1

                                Jeremiah 4:23

                                I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
                                Yeah, exactly what one would expect of a universe just created, but not yet formed.

                                God showed by revelation to Jeremiah the state of the earth before God started restoring it in Genesis 1:3
                                More question begging.

                                Why would it need to be restored if it hadn't yet been formed?

                                God is light and in him is no darkness at all, I John 1:5

                                God would have included the creation of light in Genesis 1:1.
                                Saying it doesn't make it so, Oatsy.

                                Why did is it not found until Genesis 1:3?
                                Because that's when God created light.

                                Not before. After the Spirit was hovering over the face of the waters.

                                Because whatever light had been part of the original creation was extinguished by a cataclymic event. Call it a "big destruction"
                                This is what you're supposed to be trying to prove.

                                Please do so.

                                When the dragon and his angels were cast down to earth was that a cotton ball landing on a pile of marshmallows?


                                Revelation 12:7-9,12-13,15-17

                                7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

                                8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

                                9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

                                It is this war that caused the original creation of Genesis 1:1 to fall into the ruin described in Genesis 1:2
                                Uh, no.

                                That would simply be describing what happened in Genesis 3.

                                Please explain why you believe otherwise.

                                God makes clear who this was that was the evil that was the source of this cataclysm, "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,"

                                This dragon... is in direct opposition to God and to His son.
                                And? your point?

                                How does this not add detail to the events of Genesis 3?

                                John 10:10 makes that abundantly clear.

                                Who steals, kills and destroys? the thief known by many other names as well as we have seen.

                                Without getting into all the passages that pertain,
                                Why not?

                                You're the one making the wild claims about scripture. You need to support your claims with evidence.

                                Lucifer was the angle of light that rebelled against God and was cast down. The dragon, the destroyer destroyed the perfection of Genesis 1:1, thus God brooded over the waters and began the restoration in Genesis 1:3
                                Again, why would the events not better describe what happened in Genesis 3?

                                Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
                                Thank you, I am glad to see that there is version that recognizes that.
                                Cherry picking tends to have the effect it's having on you.

                                It's called "confirmation bias."

                                Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
                                Clearly you have not read what I posted seeing that you out and out contradict what I said.

                                If you handle scripture with the same opposition to what is clearly written, then it is not profitable for me to bother replying to the rest of your post.
                                The only one here (besides Jerry) who isn't handling scripture appropriately is you.

                                If you don't feel the need to participate in this thread, then either you can leave the thread on your own, or I can boot you from it now and save you the trouble, so that you don't become a troll.

                                I'm rather enjoying this discussion, don't ruin it for yourself because you don't like what I have to say.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X