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  • Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
    BobB



    Bob.. if you believe change over time has occurred then the only creation that is compatible is creation and recreation and recreation.. etc.. is that what you really believe ?
    How so?

    Creation followed by change within kinds is perfectly compatible with the evidence. The long ages concept is merely an inference which arises from believing that radiometric dating (and evolutionary processes) implies long ages.
    Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
    Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

    Comment


    • Bob,

      So Ok.. radiometric, and carbon dating are wrong ?

      Basing age on time for sediment to occur is also wrong ?

      The other thing is the layering of fossils.. fossils are always found in layers meaning that the different types did not co-exist.. which means the world was inhabited by entirely different bunches of species at different times.

      So under your assumption of 1 creation event that would mean that man coexisted with trilobites and Dinosaurs ???

      The evidence for man coexisting with dinosaurs would be OVERWHELMING.. not just a biblical reference to behemoth and leviathan.. we would have cave paintings, legends, evidence in ancient middens, evidence of killing and being killed.. dinosaur artefacts by the bucketload.

      Dino’s would have RULED mans imagination and world.. you cannot honestly believe man and dino coexisted.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
        Bob,

        So Ok.. radiometric, and carbon dating are wrong ?
        That is too general a statement. Carbon dating seems to work for several thousands years, but then seems to run into increasing difficulty, probably due to the fact that materials are not completely closed to gain or loss of radioactive components.

        Long age methods can not be independently verified and results may be due to factors currently not fully understood.

        Basing age on time for sediment to occur is also wrong ?
        This approach is so silly it is surprising to hear it mentioned.

        The other thing is the layering of fossils.. fossils are always found in layers meaning that the different types did not co-exist..
        One could say the same thing about creatures found in different habitats around the world.


        which means the world was inhabited by entirely different bunches of species at different times.
        Or alternatively was inhabited by different species at different locations, all living at the same time.

        So under your assumption of 1 creation event that would mean that man coexisted with trilobites and Dinosaurs ???
        The evidence is quite clear that man and dinosaurs co-existed.

        The evidence for man coexisting with dinosaurs would be OVERWHELMING.. not just a biblical reference to behemoth and leviathan.. we would have cave paintings, legends, evidence in ancient middens, evidence of killing and being killed.. dinosaur artefacts by the bucketload.
        And of course we do have all of the above.

        Dino’s would have RULED mans imagination
        And of course they did precisely that.

        you cannot honestly believe man and dino coexisted.
        I believe that one should follow the evidence regardless of where it leads, despite the evolutionary thinking that is the current fad in our modern society.

        I will have to admit that I thought as most skeptics up until 20 years ago. At that time I seriously looked at the evidence in great detail for the first time in my life and was stunned to discover that evolution had no sound scientific and analytical basis. It took me a while to get over that shock and realize that a society can believe fervently in things that sound good but are not actually true (e.g. Communism). On the other hand, things that are basically true can sometimes be discredited by most members of a given society, particularly if the truths are distorted or watered down by many of its adherents and foes alike (e.g. Christianity).
        Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
        Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

        Comment


        • Bob,


          Fossils occur in the SAME place in different strata. We don’t have fossils of modern creatures appearing in ancient strata even though they exist in the same place today !

          Would you say that the evidence for man and Dino coexisting would be at LEAST as strong as say.. lions ?

          Yet what evidence exists AT AL for Dino coexistence.. first let me completely rid you of the ridiculous evidence for coexistence.

          1. The mention of Behemoth and leviathan in the Bible.. mentioned fleetingly .. lions mention 100’s of times.. what would be more interesting to a human a T Rex or a lion ?
          2. Dragon Legends… No dinosaur Flew and No dinosaur breathed fire. Therefore we can admit Dragon legends are just myths.. (probably spawned from ancient men discovering TRex fossils)
          3. Ancient St American stone carvings showing Dinosaurs.. 1 Lot was an admitted fake.. the other also included many mythical impossible beings .. like half man half bird etc.. they were imaginary creatures.

          Now stack these pathetic pieces of evidence up against what we have for lions.. every culture where they existed mentions them in art, drawing and text. They retain artefacts of them.. skins, teeth manes. Tails etc,

          To believe man and dinosaurs co existed is to divorce yourself from any form of reality.. it bespeaks someone desperate to maintain a strange mythological interpretation of a religious text !

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
            Bob,
            Fossils occur in the SAME place in different strata.
            How can something be in the same place in different strata? You might try rewording that.[/quote]

            We don’t have fossils of modern creatures appearing in ancient strata even though they exist in the same place today !
            The terms "modern" and "primitive" are inventions. All fossil creatures were alive at essentially the same time.

            Would you say that the evidence for man and Dino coexisting would be at LEAST as strong as say.. lions ?
            It is probably true that essentially all dinosaurs are now extinct, so the case could never be as strong as for creatures not extinct, since we could not actually observe them as being contemporaneous with men.

            Yet what evidence exists AT AL for Dino coexistence.. first let me completely rid you of the ridiculous evidence for coexistence.

            1. The mention of Behemoth and leviathan in the Bible.. mentioned fleetingly .. lions mention 100’s of times.. what would be more interesting to a human a T Rex or a lion ?
            It is possible that dinosaurs may be mentioned more times in scripture than are lions. This is because the word "beast" is mentioned 193 times and this term covers a lot of territory. Also the word dragon appears 27 times.

            2. Dragon Legends… No dinosaur Flew and No dinosaur breathed fire. Therefore we can admit Dragon legends are just myths.. (probably spawned from ancient men discovering TRex fossils)
            Sorry, dinosaur like creatures did fly. American Indians called them "Thunderbirds". The "fire breathing" could be an interpretation error mistaking the cold weather phenomenon of "seeing one's breath" or something else not currently understood similar to the bombardeer beetle

            3. Ancient St American stone carvings showing Dinosaurs.. 1 Lot was an admitted fake.. the other also included many mythical impossible beings .. like half man half bird etc.. they were imaginary creatures.
            Since humans are currently experimenting with man/mouse hybrids the possibility of creatures with mixed characteristics verifies my concept that the Flood was necessary to prevent the human race genome from being polluted by genetic experimentation (of course many of the myths were certainly exaggerations).

            Thus the Bible states the real reason Noah was selected to perpetuate the human race ("Noah was perfect in his generations").

            Now stack these pathetic pieces of evidence up against what we have for lions.. every culture where they existed mentions them in art, drawing and text. They retain artefacts of them.. skins, teeth manes. Tails etc,
            The dinosaurs were undoubtedly mostly destroyed by the Flood and since the larger ones probably bred slowly would have been few in number by the time of the lion evidence you mention.

            To believe man and dinosaurs co existed is to divorce yourself from any form of reality.. it bespeaks someone desperate to maintain a strange mythological interpretation of a religious text !
            On the contrary, your inability to conceive of the possibility of man coexisting with dinosaurs, based on the evidence I mentioned, means that you are dogmatic and closed minded on the subject.

            BTW, you might be interested to learn that dinosaurs are mentioned more times in the Torah than are lions. The books of the Bible written at much later dates than the Torah of course mention lions slightly more often than they mention dinosaurs for the simple reason that the vast majority of the dinosaurs had become extinct by then.
            Last edited by bob b; September 14, 2003, 10:33 PM.
            Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
            Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

            Comment


            • Bob,

              I guess as you are now about the 10th person I have come across who believes the literal mythology of the Bible I should stop being so stunned by it.

              The amount of twists and turns you have to put your mind through to hang onto this literal interpretation are truly mind boggling.

              You would never give any other story such incredible leeway.

              How can something be in the same place in different strata? You might try rewording that.
              You might try re-understanding ! You do KNOW that different strata are “stacked” upon each other at a single site ? As you dig down you find fossils at different levels.. you don’t find a fossilised cow underneath a fossilised dinosaur !

              The terms "modern" and "primitive" are inventions. All fossil creatures were alive at essentially the same time.
              Why don’t we have fossils of creatures I see today in the same strata as dinosaurs then ???

              It is probably true that essentially all dinosaurs are now extinct, so the case could never be as strong as for creatures not extinct, since we could not actually observe them as being contemporaneous with men.
              Mammoths are now extinct and mans interaction with them is CLEAR.

              It is possible that dinosaurs may be mentioned more times in scripture than are lions. This is because the word "beast" is mentioned 193 times and this term covers a lot of territory. Also the word dragon appears 27 times.
              So every time we see “beast” they mean Dinosaur ??

              Like this one..

              And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
              Love to find the fossil for that guy !

              And this ?

              Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
              So all Noah took into the Ark where Dino’s.. yet they were the ones who didn’t make it.. oops someone stuffed up big time !

              Etc etc.. NO ONE would take most beast references in the Bible to mean dinosaurs.. please don’t insult our intelligence Bob !

              Sorry, dinosaur like creatures did fly. American Indians called them "Thunderbirds". The "fire breathing" could be an interpretation error mistaking the cold weather phenomenon of "seeing one's breath" or something else not currently understood similar to the bombardeer beetle
              Thunderbird were part of the mythology the American Indians.. why do you discount everything else they say and latch onto one bit that supports dragons.. rather selective huh ? The only flying “dinosaur” were Pterodactyl’s types and if you think they look ANYTHING like any dragon legend you have ever seen you are mad !

              The cold breath thing.. have you ever seen a bunch of cows in the Early morning.. puffing out steam like no mans business.. trouble is we KNOW what it is .. we do it to.. we DO NOT attribute it to fiery breath.. just the same as ancient people would NOT have !

              Since humans are currently experimenting with man/mouse hybrids the possibility of creatures with mixed characteristics verifies my concept that the Flood was necessary to prevent the human race genome from being polluted by genetic experimentation (of course many of the myths were certainly exaggerations).
              No society in the past had the sophistication to come even CLOSE to genetic manipulation. Inferring they did is another clutch at a bunch of straws to maintain your literalist fantasy !

              The dinosaurs were undoubtedly mostly destroyed by the Flood and since the larger ones probably bred slowly would have been few in number by the time of the lion evidence you mention.
              Yet didn’t Noah take the “Beasts” on board the Ark ?. Why don’t we have lion fossils around dinos.. Why don’t we have lion teeth marks in Dino fossils ??

              On the contrary, your inability to conceive of the possibility of man coexisting with dinosaurs, based on the evidence I mentioned, means that you are dogmatic and closed minded on the subject.
              I suppose I should face the fact that somewhere in this world in spite of their own intelligence will be men who totally disregard their own sense of logic to follow religious fantasies.. while I certainly don’t put you in the same bracket (thank your own God) the 9/11 bombers spring to mind !

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bigotboy
                Dear Aussie, if you would learn the English language you would notice that I was looking for empirical (you might want to consult www.dictionary.com for this word) evidence for dogs coming from beetles, or whatever you propose for your evolutionaly scheme. I already have a belief based on faith, I'm looking for hard evidence to change that belief. You may want to take your index fingers, but them into your ears and give a sharp tug. That will release your head from your rear end and you can navigate over to "Origins> life from non life" and pick up on the discussion. I await your towering intellect.

                Comment


                • [QUOTE]Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
                  Bob,
                  I guess as you are now about the 10th person I have come across who believes the literal mythology of the Bible I should stop being so stunned by it.[quote]

                  Surveys show that more people believe the Bible than do believe the modern mythology of evolution. Try broadening your circle of humans.

                  The amount of twists and turns you have to put your mind through to hang onto this literal interpretation are truly mind boggling.
                  This statement applies to your simplistic view of the fossil record. See the next quotation for a beautiful example.

                  You might try re-understanding ! You do KNOW that different strata are “stacked” upon each other at a single site ? As you dig down you find fossils at different levels.. you don’t find a fossilised cow underneath a fossilised dinosaur !
                  Cows tended to avoid dinosaurs.

                  Why don’t we have fossils of creatures I see today in the same strata as dinosaurs then ???
                  Actually we do since dinosaur fossils generally appear on the top of the ground.

                  Mammoths are now extinct and mans interaction with them is CLEAR.
                  Mammoths were post Flood in great numbers and more easily hunted than dinosaurs.

                  So every time we see “beast” they mean Dinosaur ??
                  Did I say that? NOT.

                  So all Noah took into the Ark where Dino’s.. yet they were the ones who didn’t make it.. oops someone stuffed up big time !
                  Since only a few of each kind were saved the ones that were fossilized can safely be assumed to have not been saved.

                  Etc etc.. NO ONE would take most beast references in the Bible to mean dinosaurs.. please don’t insult our intelligence Bob !
                  I simply observed that beast is a generic term and was translated by the King James interpreters according to the world view existing at the time of the Middle Ages.

                  Thunderbird were part of the mythology the American Indians.. why do you discount everything else they say and latch onto one bit that supports dragons.. rather selective huh ? The only flying “dinosaur” were Pterodactyl’s types and if you think they look ANYTHING like any dragon legend you have ever seen you are mad !
                  Your lack of knowledge in this area is showing.

                  The cold breath thing.. have you ever seen a bunch of cows in the Early morning.. puffing out steam like no mans business.. trouble is we KNOW what it is .. we do it to.. we DO NOT attribute it to fiery breath.. just the same as ancient people would NOT have !
                  Perhaps. Perhaps not, but you seem to be inconsistent about the knowledge level and reasoning ability of ancient people.

                  No society in the past had the sophistication to come even CLOSE to genetic manipulation
                  What is your evidence for such a dogmatic opinion?

                  Yet didn’t Noah take the “Beasts” on board the Ark ?. Why don’t we have lion fossils around dinos.. Why don’t we have lion teeth marks in Dino fossils ??
                  I would think lions and dinosaurs might have lived in different locales, for obvious reasons.

                  I suppose I should face the fact that somewhere in this world in spite of their own intelligence will be men who totally disregard their own sense of logic to follow evolutionary fantasies.
                  Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
                  Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

                  Comment


                  • Bob,

                    This statement applies to your simplistic view of the fossil record. See the next quotation for a beautiful example.
                    The irony of YOU saying I have a simplistic view of the fossil record. When you don’t even ACCEPT the fossil record was laid down over millions of years. I assume you are one of these strange creatures that refuses to accept what geologist, anthropologists and archaeologists have said for almost 200 years. The Earth is old and it surface is laid down in DISTINCLTY definable geological layers.

                    In these layers we DO NOT find fossils of ANY modern creatures mixed with fossils of ancient creatures.

                    Cows tended to avoid dinosaurs.
                    You wanted a simpleton answer.. so I guess you gave one. Do you realise just how much that answer epitomises the childish myopia of the biblical literalist. It is a classic Kent Hovind style statement that if you really think about it is about as stupid a thing as you could say.

                    MOST dinosaurs were HERD animals who ate the same stuff cows (buffalo) do. Dinosaurs also filled EVERY niche and were found on every part of this planet. If cows and Dinosaurs existed at the same time they WOULD be found in the same strata.

                    Actually we do since dinosaur fossils generally appear on the top of the ground.
                    On top of the ground in ancient strata that has been worn away.

                    Mammoths were post Flood in great numbers and more easily hunted than dinosaurs.
                    What another ridiculous statement. You remember my statement about the hoops you have to put your mind through ?

                    Dinosaurs came in all shapes and sizes. PLENTY of them were smaller and FAR easier hunted than a Mammoth. Yet we have NO evidence of any of them being hunted AT ALL !

                    Did I say that? NOT.
                    No but you implied it, you said

                    It is possible that dinosaurs may be mentioned more times in scripture than are lions. This is because the word "beast" is mentioned 193 times and this term covers a lot of territory. Also the word dragon appears 27 times.
                    That implies most of these references COULD have been dinosaurs.. but when you read then NONE of them sound like they could have been dinosaurs !
                    quote:

                    Since only a few of each kind were saved the ones that were fossilized can safely be assumed to have not been saved.
                    Why didn’t Noah take all the dino species on the Ark ? if he did how could these creatures that dominated the planet not survive the aftermath.

                    I simply observed that beast is a generic term and was translated by the King James interpreters according to the world view existing at the time of the Middle Ages.
                    And meant cattle, sheep, lions etc etc .. KNOWN beasts !

                    Your lack of knowledge in this area is showing.
                    Unlike your which was shown to be so evident ???

                    Perhaps. Perhaps not, but you seem to be inconsistent about the knowledge level and reasoning ability of ancient people.
                    Ancient peoples were just as clever as us. Their trouble was they had far more gaps in their knowledge.. hence they invoked far more god than we do to fill those gaps.

                    What is your evidence for such a dogmatic opinion?
                    Any society that could manipulate genes would have left compelling evidence behind. They would have had sophisticated communications (writing etc). We would have examples of their experiments etc.. you find me an ancient ½ man ½ half beast skeleton and I will rethink my position !

                    I would think lions and dinosaurs might have lived in different locales, for obvious reasons.
                    What obvious reasons??.. again you seem to forget MOST dino’s were herbivores.. PERFECT prey for lions. Modern predators and prey “hang out” together.. as well as modern predators also occupy the same niche. Your obvious reasons are another HOOP you just jumped through.. you should join the circus !

                    I suppose I should face the fact that somewhere in this world in spite of their own intelligence will be men who totally disregard their own sense of logic to follow evolutionary fantasies.
                    There is a big difference.. your mythology dictates how you view the world.. you CANNOT abandon in regardless of evidence. I can abandon evolution INSTANTLY if better evidence comes along.

                    Comment


                    • I can abandon evolution INSTANTLY if better evidence comes along.
                      Baloney. there is no evidence whatsoever to support the fairytale that all creatures evolved from a hypothetical protocell.

                      On the contrary it is obvious that life could only have been created by a super intelligent being.

                      Yet you passionately deny this and like many others latch onto the modern day fairytale, because you hate the idea that you will have to someday account for your sinful actions to an all powerful God who created the universe and life within it.

                      Bowing down is something you will eventually have to do even though every fiber in your being rebels at such a thought.
                      Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
                      Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bob b
                        On the contrary it is obvious that life could only have been created by a super intelligent being.
                        Really? In that case, WHICH "super intelligent being" did you have in mind, and where is the evidence in support of that decision?

                        Or is this just another assertion that you are either unwilling or unable to provide reasoning for?

                        Comment


                        • In that case, WHICH "super intelligent being" did you have in mind, and where is the evidence in support of that decision?
                          Why of course I have worked out a mathematical proof of this, which unfortunately only a handful of people in the entire world are able to comprehend.
                          Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
                          Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by bob b
                            Why of course I have worked out a mathematical proof of this, which unfortunately only a handful of people in the entire world are able to comprehend.
                            In that case, could you possibly provide the name and phone number of the asylum in which these people can be found?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by bmyers
                              In that case, could you possibly provide the name and phone number of the asylum in which these people can be found?
                              Try:

                              The National Science Foundation
                              4201 Wilson Boulevard,
                              Arlington, Virginia 22230,
                              USA Tel: 703-292-5111
                              Random changes are destructive to any carefully crafted piece of work, such as a computer program, a novel or the genome of a lifeform.
                              Matt 23:24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by bob b
                                Try:

                                The National Science Foundation
                                4201 Wilson Boulevard,
                                Arlington, Virginia 22230,
                                USA Tel: 703-292-5111

                                Sorry, they say they've never heard of you...

                                Comment

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