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  • Originally posted by August
    (3) In answering this post, I broke a resolution that I would never debate you, and this is absolutely my last reply to you until you learn how to express yourself in English. Your posts are all but undecipherable.
    IMHO, your time would be better spent studying spelling, grammar, and logic than copying long passages from a book that you have allowed to dominate your thinking. I hope that the moderators will not permit that practice to become a precedent on this forum.

    (emphasis: mine)
    The articles I copied show an in depth perspective on a philosophical world view, which is in my opinion a good attempt to explain what the world is about.

    Despite that, it has not happened that his book has allowed me to dominate my thinking, since my thinking was already formed and developed before I; the online book btw. I happened to find just recently on the internet.

    And if you excuse me, you should not just take me for a fool (despite my language mistakes, but since English is not my first language, this can happen, and I do my best to improve it) who is incapable of developing his own outlook on reality, and therefore needs a dogma of some sorts to make up his mind.

    I am quite capable of making up my own mind, and to make my own judgements, as should others do too.

    The fact is that the sort of outlook which is presented, is not a dogma. It is an open outlook on reality, and not a closed one, like the Bible.

    In fact Christianity has hard times to survice nowadays, since it has a dogmatic outlook on reality. The 'word of God' as is stated in the Bible, does not fit into reality anymore, at least not as we know it nowadays.
    A lot of Christians find it hard to accept the Bible on a literal basis, since the Genesis account can in no way be matched with the findings of science.

    That means: we have to choose between them, since we can not accept both.

    Some Christians may try to find a way in which they can keep both, while others keep their dogmatic beliefs strictly in accordance with a literal Biblic account (stating for example that the earth was created not much more then 6000 years ago) and refute what science tells us.

    Others distantiate themselves from the literal Bible interpretation, and accept the findings of science as a more accurate description of how life and humans emerged on earth, etc. But that of course means, that they have to escape from the Bible as the sole and only outlook on the world, and have to question the 'Word of God'. Necessarily and irrefutably.

    Realy, it is possible to conduct one's own life, without the 'word of God' supporting you. We can - as humankind - not always stay children, guided by (fictious) parents, we need to grow up, get a grip on ourselves, and see the world (with the help of science and anything we already developed) in the way it is, and not in the way we would like it to be.

    We might feel safe and secure, in a "closed belief system", in which the only thing we have to do is to "trust God's word", and don't need to think ourselves, and in which our lives are in the "hand of God". It might be safe and comforting, on one hand, but it ties us down, and does not encourage our full potential, either.

    On the basis of a scientific and materialistic outlook on reality, we have the necessarily ingredients and tools for establishing an outlook and perspective on reality, which is closer to reality then any belief system has done. The point we have to adapt to, is that in an open- never-ending reality, we can never have a closed outlook on reality itself. Materialism starts from the point of view that we can know the world, but can never know the world entirely, since the world itself is open and never ended. Our outlook on reality has to develop with reality itself. The world is ever changing, and the viewpoints adopted yesterday, might be outdated today.

    We have no other way, then to trust ourselves. We have free will, and are not obliged or owing anything or anyone for our existence (esp. no God). But having a free will, also obliges us to our own commitment to our own freedom.
    Last edited by heusdens; July 7, 2003, 09:10 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
      Your way isn't going to get you anywhere.
      1. What do you think or believe to know of "what my way" is, if I may ask, and how do you think you can know that?

      2. Your statement is in it's effect rather contradictionary. Suppose I would agree on what you say, and "alter my way". It would still and nevertheless be "my way".

      3. Perhaps you want to offer me a way out? A "conviction to Christianity" perhaps? A place in eternity?

      4. And the most trivial thing is of course, that no matter how I will conduct my life, it is going to have an end, like all of the rest of us. if I am comfortable with that thought, or not, there is no way to change that. The knowledge that there is eternity (yes, there is) does not alter anything about the fact that human lives are not eternal.

      5. Does that bother you?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by heusdens
        1. What do you think or believe to know of "what my way" is, if I may ask, and how do you think you can know that?
        If Jesus isn't your way, then you don't have one.

        2. Your statement is in it's effect rather contradictionary.
        Contradictionary?

        Suppose I would agree on what you say, and "alter my way". It would still and nevertheless be "my way". If there is no possibility to
        See above.

        3. Perhaps you want to offer me a way out? A "conviction to Christianity" perhaps? A place in eternity?
        See above.

        4. And the most trivial thing is of course, that no matter how I will conduct my life, it is going to have an end, like all of the rest of us. if I am comfortable with that thought, or not, there is no way to change that. The knowledge that there is eternity (yes, there is) does not alter anything about the fact that human lives are not eternal.
        I never said human lives were eternal. I just said Jesus is the only way to Heaven.

        5. Does that bother you?
        Does what bother me?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
          If Jesus isn't your way, then you don't have one.
          Jesus way was Jesus way. My way is my way. Jesus way cannot be my way, because then I would be Jesus.

          So, what ever way is my way, it is my way, and that is not something that can be changed, is it? I mean, even if I change my way, it is still my way.



          I never said human lives were eternal. I just said Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
          I was trying to indicate that yes.

          What makes you think that:

          - I believe in heaven
          - I might wanna go there?

          Does what bother me?
          That when we die, we are dead. No one lives for eternity, or can live for eternity.

          PS. Do you know how long eternity is?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by heusdens
            Jesus way was Jesus way. My way is my way. Jesus way cannot be my way, because then I would be Jesus.

            So, what ever way is my way, it is my way, and that is not something that can be changed, is it? I mean, even if I change my way, it is still my way.
            And if it isn't Jesus, it isn't going to get you anywhere. All you've done is make my point for me.

            I was trying to indicate that yes.

            What makes you think that:

            - I believe in heaven
            - I might wanna go there?
            What makes you think I care what you believe?

            That when we die, we are dead. No one lives for eternity, or can live for eternity.
            No, that doesn't bother me, because I know it's false.

            PS. Do you know how long eternity is?
            Pretty long...
            Last edited by One Eyed Jack; July 7, 2003, 09:58 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
              And if it isn't Jesus, it isn't going to get you anywhere. All you've done is make my point for me.
              Of course it did, and without offense, I know that is what you wanted to present to me, somethingg like a closed loop, or mind trap. It is of course a set up. You intended to trap me in there.

              Take no offense in it, but such a thing can be quite irritating. (I felt quite irritated by your set up, excuse me I - You see I am only human....).

              Why do you want to trap me in, and then offer me a way out on your terms (the "heaven" thing)?

              What urges you to treat others that way?

              Is that "Christian' way of treating others?

              What makes you think I care what you believe?
              Nothing realy.

              What makes you think that anything to say would matter to me, if you do not show any signs of having a real conversation with someone. Why start a debate if you "don't care".

              What program are you running. Jesus salvation version 3.x?

              Why should I talk with a program?

              No, that doesn't bother me, because I know it's false.
              How do you know that? Do programs know anything, apart from pretending to have knowledge?


              Pretty long...
              You show no indication of having a real idea about infinity/eternity.

              Try harder.

              Comment


              • Mr One Eyed Jack:

                Can you proof to me that you are human?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by heusdens
                  You show no indication of having a real idea about infinity/eternity.
                  Neither have you.

                  Try harder.
                  You could try a little harder to come up with a more coherent reply...
                  Last edited by One Eyed Jack; July 7, 2003, 10:25 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by heusdens
                    Mr One Eyed Jack:

                    Can you proof to me that you are human?
                    My avatar is a picture of me. You didn't think it was a movie star, did you?
                    Last edited by One Eyed Jack; July 7, 2003, 10:24 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
                      That's a picture of me in my avatar. You didn't think it was a movie star, did you?
                      Ok.

                      Let us just for the moment assume that it is you.

                      Fact is, I find your "conversation stragegy" a little hard to deal with.

                      Can you imagine why?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
                        You could try a little harder to come up with a coherent reply...
                        You could try a little harder to show some more human talent in communication. You know what humans are, do you?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by heusdens
                          Ok.

                          Let us just for the moment assume that it is you.
                          A safe assumption.

                          Fact is, I find your "conversation stragegy" a little hard to deal with.
                          That doesn't surprise me.

                          Can you imagine why?
                          Sure.
                          Last edited by One Eyed Jack; July 7, 2003, 10:30 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by heusdens
                            You could try a little harder to show some more human talent in communication.
                            Maybe you just need to learn English better.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
                              Maybe you just need to learn English better.
                              I can agree on that, but there is more to communication then just the language skills. I am sure you can nevertheless understand me. I am sorry that English is not my mother language, I can just try to express myself well.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
                                That doesn't surprise me.
                                Can you explain why it doesn't surprise you?

                                Do you mean you intended to? And for what reason?

                                Sure.
                                Ok.

                                Comment

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