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  • Originally posted by Balder
    It's clear that Aimiel has no compunction about people being tortured for eternity as "just punishment."

    It's a clear gap in moral reasoning that separates the Universalists from the Damnationalists, in my opinion.
    What is a Damnationalist? There is no such thing. Universalism is named that for the system of beliefs that Universalists hold. They call themselves that. (Except some are ashamed to be called that it seems to me).

    I am a Biblicist. I believe in the inspiration and authority of the Word of God.


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    • Originally posted by PastorKevin
      UNIVERSALISTS VS. JESUS:

      Universalist: Modern translations CANNOT be trusted.

      Jesus: For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
      Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

      Of course the Lord's Words won't pass away, but human beings can interpret His Word poorly. Let's not forget that the Church interpreted Matthew 16:18-

      1"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

      -to prove that Jesus appointed Peter the "first pope".

      What we have is an interpretation difference.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Aionios
        Of course the Lord's Words won't pass away, but human beings can interpret His Word poorly. Let's not forget that the Church interpreted Matthew 16:18-

        1"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

        -to prove that Jesus appointed Peter the "first pope".

        What we have is an interpretation difference.
        True but the issues we are dealing with are more than just interpretation. It is also translation among other things. But yes I agree that many wrong interpretations have led to a whole lotta false teaching over the years. I inculde Universalism in this............


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        • red77,

          When you get back, please respond to this post:

          You accused me of misrepresenting kimberlyann.

          Originally posted by red77
          whats more I know that Kim hasnt relied on her 'feelings' on the matter much as you would like it to be so to trash her beliefs as 'sentimental' or some such.....that isnt the case as many of her posts will testify to on this site......
          Ok, if there is more on the issue, by all means please share. Where are the verses that limit the lake.
          Help for

          "...the Reformation broke with Rome but not Greece..." - Bob Enyart

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          • I say "damnationalist," though I should say "eternal damnationalist." I know that that isn't anyone's formal title, but it's a fair way of describing those who believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

            I think there is such a gap in moral perspective between those who do not have any problems with the idea of eternal damnation, and in fact would inflict such a sentence themselves if given the opportunity, and those who see it as an abominable evil, that this conversation will not likely be resolved on Biblical grounds. Simply because the hearts looking at the Bible are so different. Without moral growth, the eternal damnationalists will continue to see such a sentence as justifiable.
            "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

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            • Originally posted by PastorKevin
              True but the issues we are dealing with are more than just interpretation. It is also translation among other things. But yes I agree that many wrong interpretations have led to a whole lotta false teaching over the years. I inculde Universalism in this............
              Translation also involves interpretation. If you study the matter, you will find that those who translate Scripture have to make judgement calls. That's why we have differences among the translations......
              The non universalist argument has better arguments than what you are putting forth.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Balder
                I think there is such a gap in moral perspective between those who...
                ...reject the Word of God and those who do not.
                Help for

                "...the Reformation broke with Rome but not Greece..." - Bob Enyart

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                • Originally posted by Balder
                  I say "damnationalist," though I should say "eternal damnationalist." I know that that isn't anyone's formal title, but it's a fair way of describing those who believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.
                  Seems to me you're trying to blame Christians for the fate you face, instead of seeking The Only One Who can deliver you from that fate; and certainly not spreading The Only Gospel that can deliver someone from eternal damation. Looks to me like it would be a far more fair way of describing you, who not only can expect damnation, but seem to be doing everything you can to prevent anyone from escaping the same fate.
                  I think there is such a gap in moral perspective between those who do not have any problems with the idea of eternal damnation, and in fact would inflict such a sentence themselves if given the opportunity, and those who see it as an abominable evil, that this conversation will not likely be resolved on Biblical grounds.
                  It can't if you don't stand on those grounds. The Word of God is Truth, not something you can pick and choose from to create your own theology of imagination.
                  Simply because the hearts looking at the Bible are so different. Without moral growth, the eternal damnationalists will continue to see such a sentence as justifiable.
                  Christians see the fate that eternaly damned are facing and try to steer them away from it; if we tried to promote that fate the way that you and anyone who doesn't understand The One and Only Gospel do we'd be just as guilty of sin as you and they are. It is a matter of perspective. It's like you know you don't have any defence for yourself, the way that murdering abortionists do, so you want to demonize us the way they do, by calling us, "Anti-choice." They are pro-murder, just like you're 'pro-damnation.' You are as accurssed as they are. Repent!!!
                  "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                  If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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                  • Originally posted by Nineveh
                    Originally posted by Balder
                    I think there is such a gap in moral perspective between those who...
                    ...reject the Word of God and those who do not.
                    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                    Comment


                    • The Only One Who Can Deliver Me from that fate is the same monster as the Only One Who Will Inflict That Fate, in your book.
                      "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

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                      • Originally posted by Balder
                        The Only One Who Can Deliver Me from that fate is the same monster as the Only One Who Will Inflict That Fate, in your book.
                        That monster is you and your hard heart.
                        Help for

                        "...the Reformation broke with Rome but not Greece..." - Bob Enyart

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                        • The Only One Who can deliver you isn't to blame for your shortcomings, He is, however, capable of and actually has already provided for your escape from said fate, Personally. All you have to do is accept the free gift that He offers, instead of finding ways to blame Him for your own mistakes, so that you can feel better about yourself. I'd say your ego is about the same size as Sozo's: gigantic.
                          "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                          If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

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                          • Those that believe in eternal torment think it is perfectly logical that God would create such a thing in the first place. To them it is perfectly logical that God has no other options available to Him. It's perfectly logical to create things in such a way that eternal torment in literal flames would be the outcome of being born of a woman...and then have to make exceptions to that rule by "saving" a few out of it.

                            They think that it is "purely" emotional to check if the Bible in it's original languages actually teaches that. They think that if someone discovers that it isn't necessarily true that punishments are never ending, isn't necessarily true that the lake of fire accomplishes nothing but unimaginable pain forever is a "softy".

                            They think you shouldn't get emotional about what it is they think is perfectly logical.

                            Their arguments show simply that they are very worried that God might just burn people forever and that believers in universal salvation through Christ endanger people in going to the eternal torment God seems so interested in doing to people. They say they are attacking a doctrine...but then end up attacking "Universalists".

                            They act like cult members. "We are right, and don't question what we are saying at all" is their mantra.

                            To them...eternal torment is an acceptible idea, and it is acceptible only because they think God is behind it. Any effort to show God isn't behind it is met with "that is illogical".

                            I don't know, folks. How can people be made to think about these things objectively while being berated constantly for checking out what the Bible taught and how people came to believe in eternal torment in the first place.

                            The MAJORITY of the greek speaking CHRISTIANS did not believe in eternal torment in the early church. Were they basing their beliefs on purely emotional grounds? The Jews don't believe in eternal torment. The Old Testament doesn't mention it. Virtually all the evidence points to the Christian Faith being a Univeralist Faith as well. The doctrine of eternal torment came much later as a sytematic theology by Augustine, who finally wrote down what the belivers in eternal torment believed. Then...it was the Catholic Church that began to impose it's theology, and declared those that believe in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ to be heretics.

                            That was the MAJORITY of the Christian world at the time!

                            But...all that doesn't matter to the perfectly logical believers in eternal torment.

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                            • Originally posted by Nineveh
                              That monster is you and your hard heart.
                              That's funny, Nineveh. I object to the endless torture of countless sentient beings as cruel and unfeeling, and you call that the result of a "hard heart."
                              "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

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                              • Originally posted by Balder
                                That's funny, Nineveh. I object to the endless torture of countless sentient beings as cruel and unfeeling, and you call that the result of a "hard heart."
                                To quote Aimiel:

                                The Only One Who can deliver you isn't to blame for your shortcomings, He is, however, capable of and actually has already provided for your escape from said fate, Personally. All you have to do is accept the free gift that He offers, instead of finding ways to blame Him for your own mistakes, so that you can feel better about yourself. I'd say your ego is about the same size as Sozo's: gigantic.
                                Help for

                                "...the Reformation broke with Rome but not Greece..." - Bob Enyart

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