Originally posted by GuySmiley
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Battle Talk ~ BR IX
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Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
The borrower is slave to the linder. What makes this country think it is rich and free?
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Originally posted by BalderHey, Jim,
It's been awhile. Hope you're doing well, dude.
Offering an unsolicited response, and expecting you not to have found what you were looking for in Carver's answer, I would say in this instance, we have a pretty good example of something that could be learned simply based on experience in conjunction with convention. I add convention because it is conceivable that in some cultures, people might have reason to consider certain number sequences "sacred" or special, perhaps based on some myth of time being suspended by Chronos or whatever, and then people in that culture might choose to reverse a sequence of numbers on certain occasions, or for certain purposes. Or perhaps we can take the convention of counting age. A year after a child is born, we expect her to be celebrate her first birthday and to be 1 year old. But in Korea, she would be considered 2 years old after her first birthday. Is she really 1 or 2?Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu
What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself.- TomO
I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve.-Ktoyou
I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio
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Originally posted by Hilston
SUTG
I like Popper. I also like Kuhn. I haven't read everything they've written on the philosophy of science, but from what I have read, I admire their efforts to formulate a cogent accounting of and grounding of the scientific enterprise. From my Biblical position, however, I don't expect there to ever be a sufficiently coherent and defensible thesis for the verity of science apart from the full recognition of the God of the Bible.
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Originally posted by HilstonI am happy to oblige, as time allow, m_d. But if I may first ask, what would constitute acceptable proof for you?
There are some flaws with this, but it would serve to show your method, and so fuel objections. There are an infinite amount of possible groundings, but thoroughly debunking a few archtypes with slight modifications would be an acceptable method of convicing me.
1. A well defined FSM.
2. SUTG, who admitted to being omniscient on another thread. He is truely amazing! The guys at the state lottery keep getting the numbers wrong though
3. A presupposition that does not rely on god - everything just is.
4. The biblical god, with slight modification. He created the world in just 5 days.
That would be a good (if long) start.
Originally posted by HilstonSee my above comments regarding the Awe-Inspiring Airborne Al Dente Deity. I would like to ask It about some problems I have with Angel Hair pasta (it absorbs too much sauce; something has got to be done about that)."What if the Hokie Pokie is really what it's all about?"
"The best things in life aren't things"
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Do you seriously wish to advance the notion of a universe governed by the Paternal Pepsi Can in the Sky? Because that is the only condition upon which your All-Powerful Pepsi Can will get a fair hearing.
This is like asking: Why is a grounded and certain knowledge any different from a blindly assumed conjecture?
Whatever successes and advances made by science are in spite of, not because of, blind-faith commitments to the tools of science.“There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett
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Also want to tack this on. You stated,
Originally posted by Hilston"Creationist, faith in induction rests upon the nature and character of God. In the case of the Evolutionist, it is a mystery (i.e. axiomatic), it is magic, and a blind religious commitment to man's own imagined autonomy and the authority of his own reason. Evolution, although it employs scientific principles by borrowing them from the Creationist toolbox, is blindly religious, and therefore does not qualify as science."“There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett
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Originally posted by HilstonI often see these kinds of claims, suggesting that the Biblical conception of God can be merely replaced by any number of imagined entities (Coke cans, Spaghetti Dieties, etc.).
The problem with this approach is twofold: First, I've yet to meet someone who starts off with such inane boasts to carry them through. In other words, those who offer up such propositions will not defend them because they don't really believe their own proposition.
Competing worldviews cannot be adequately compared if one of the views is not seriously put forth and affirmed.
It's unfounded assertation for unfounded assertation. 1
Second, whenever I've pressed those who make such suggestions to begin to describe the nature and attributes of their Coke can deity or their Pasta Papa in the Sky, the ostensible votaries inevitably back down. This is because they realize where my questions will lead, namely, to a description that begins to match in varied respects the true God as revealed in the Bible.
1( my apologies to anyone that does believe in the Flying Spigetti Monster)Everyman is a voice in the dark.
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Originally posted by The BereanIsn't it both? After one year the child will have completed their first year and begin their second year of life. Koreans simply celebrate the begining of the "new" year. My wife is Korean and she explained it to me.
I worked for a couple years in Korea, by the way, and some of my friends have married into Korean culture. Sometimes I miss a good, make-your-eyes-run-with-tears-and-your- face-flush- with-heat Korean meal.
Annyonghi kyeshipshio,
Balder"Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke
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Thanks to both Strat & Hilston for taking the time to debate! I'm hoping for a very interesting debate between both of them.
I see that Hilston is going the same way Clete went in his Carl Sagan thread.
Since I've yet to get a response from Clete regarding certain points I've made, perhaps, if the debate goes that way, Hilston will have an a opportunity to respond to them.
First, the topic of the debate is "Evolution: Science or Science Fiction"? To win, one must merely define science, and then show that the Theory of Evolution fits, or doesn't fit.
Stratnerd basically describes "science" as falsifiable. At the center of Hilstons argument is that science is impossible without a "rational basis" for induction, which is belief, or faith, as he puts it, in his God.
I hope that the following is touched on:
a.) Why is it necessary to justify or have a "basis" for concepts which are self-evident? When one says that a concept is an axiom or is axiomatic, we say that it is to be accepted on its intrinsic evidence, to borrow from the Russell quote Hilston provided.
b.) If it's blind faith that one is to accept axioms only on their intrinsic evidence, then it must also be blind faith to accept one's senses. Our senses are also axiomatic. Like logic, it is not possible to verify or falsify one's senses without using the same senses.
c.) What about the possiblity that the origins of nature and logic are merely beyond the capacity of human comprehension?Using no way as a way
Using no limitations as a limitation
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Originally posted by avatar382Thanks to both Strat & Hilston for taking the time to debate! I'm hoping for a very interesting debate between both of them.
I see that Hilston is going the same way Clete went in his Carl Sagan thread.
Since I've yet to get a response from Clete regarding certain points I've made, perhaps, if the debate goes that way, Hilston will have an a opportunity to respond to them.
First, the topic of the debate is "Evolution: Science or Science Fiction"? To win, one must merely define science, and then show that the Theory of Evolution fits, or doesn't fit.
Stratnerd basically describes "science" as falsifiable. At the center of Hilstons argument is that science is impossible without a "rational basis" for induction, which is belief, or faith, as he puts it, in his God.
As others in this thread have said, I hope that the following is touched on:
a.) Why is it necessary to justify or have a "basis" for concepts which are self-evident? When one says that a concept is an axiom or is axiomatic, we say that it is to be accepted on its intrinsic evidence, to borrow from the Russell quote Hilston provided.
b.) If it's blind faith that one is to accept axioms only on their intrinsic evidence, then it must also be blind faith to accept one's senses. Our senses are also axiomatic. Like logic, it is not possible to verify or falsify one's senses without using the same senses, so such an attempt would be begging the question.
Since the senses are used by Christians to observe the world and read the Bible, the Bible cannot be used as a "rational basis" for our senses. In fact, nothing can be used as a rational basis for our senses, since everything we experience relies on them! This is exactly why they are axiomatic.
c.) What about the possiblity that the origins of nature and logic are merely beyond the capacity of human comprehension?Using no way as a way
Using no limitations as a limitation
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Yeesh. I thought I was editing my post, Turns out I was quoting myself.
Please, read the second post.
Mods, if you would be good enough to replace post 55 with the content from 56 and delete 56, I'd be much obligied!Using no way as a way
Using no limitations as a limitation
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Originally posted by The BereanIsn't it both? After one year the child will have completed their first year and begin their second year of life. Koreans simply celebrate the begining of the "new" year. My wife is Korean and she explained it to me.The S.P. is gone forever.
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I am very excited! Thank you for the email concerning the start of the Battle. I am a Pastoral student and I believe Jim opened with an excelent style to his debate. I am on the edge of my seat! I am still trying to navigate through this site, so please stick with me while I do learn. Oh, and i surely can not type! So forgive me. I think this is a great start and would have to agree that Stratnerd did not do his homework on Jim. Hilston, I must say has blown me away with his style of debate. I absolutely like the way he writes, and I spend 90% of my time in comentaries. I think this is a great site, and am very glad I stumbled accross it.
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The Carl Sagan thread has been closed.
Although I completely understand the reason why - (and even agree with the closing) - as the subject matter is virtually identical to BR IX, I cannot help but feel slightly annoyed that I will be unable provide a rebuttal to Clete's latest argument in that venue. Especially since Clete has inheretied the Enyartian tendency to declare "victory" in the middle of a debate.
This thread is not about Clete and I, however - it doesn't seem quite right to quote and rebut the last post made in the Sagan thread here - but, I would like to offer some of my obversations about the presuppositional argument used by Hilston in BR IX and Clete in the aforementioned thread.
It is my observation that the presuppositional argument is circular.
It seeks to begin with the Bible to defend the Bible. Of course, the presuppositional theist will argue that the non-theist does the same - presupposing logic to defend logic.
There is much to say on this matter (obviously), and I'd like to see how the battle plays out rather than dump a bunch of arguments at this early stage, but I would like to explain where I was going with one of my arguments to Clete, which, incidentally, I repeated to Hilston just a few posts above.
I mentioned the human senses because we are utterly dependant on them, like logic, to percieve and interact with the world around us.
Clete has made the claim that like logic, our senses are accounted for because we have been created by a being that is logical, and able to sense.
My question is then - How do we know of this being, called "God"? The theist answer is: By revelation from the Bible.
My very next question of course is: How is one to recieve revelation from the Bible, without senses to read the words or to hear them spoken?
So, given that man's only method of revelation is utterly reliant on the senses, it is necessary to presuppose their (and ultimately, logic's) verity before we can presuppose the Bible. One cannot use the Bible to account for the verity of the senses while relying on the very same senses to know what the content of the Bible is.Using no way as a way
Using no limitations as a limitation
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