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BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale IV - JALTUS vs. s9s27s54

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  • Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7

    Redeemed, I have been told over and over that everyone has their own Bible, WHEN are they going to start to read and study it and get their heads out of their critical apparatus?








    Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7
    Job 26
    2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?
    3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
    4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
    5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Explosived "Even if Calvin was wrong for executing Servitus, that does not automatically falsify his beliefs."-Redeemed

      You mean murder don't you?

      Was Calvin a "civil authority"?
      Actually, Explosived, executing was exactly the word I meant to use.... IF Calvin was a "civil authority" in Geneva.

      There are varying accounts of his role in Geneva. Some claim that he wasn't even a citizen and thus not allowed to hold public office at all. Some claim that he was the law himself -- the "Dictator of Geneva" or the "Pope of Geneva". Some even claim that he lit the match himself, although there seems to be no proof of this.

      All I am saying is that "IF" Calvin was the civil authority as many claim, then his actions are defined as "execution", not "murder". Now, I'm not saying that Calvin exercised his God-given civil authority in a Godly manner. The fact that God establishes authorities does not imply that they are Godly -- witness our own government here in the States. The authorities may kill someone unjustly, but it is "execution" by definition, not "murder". In an unjust execution, the individuals involved may be just as guilty before God as if they had personally committed murder, but it is still "execution" by definition.

      Comment


      • Executed is definately the right word. And Ginger, why are you taking Rapts side in this? I thought you were to take God's side?

        Comment


        • There most certainly ISN'T any precedent in scripture for most of the things Jaltus mentioned. That's because they are not scriptural, some are not even based on any scriptural principal. Seminaries, Sunday School, (required) Sunday meetings, Christians holding political office, building church buildings, NONE of those things were seen practiced nor condoned by the early church. They did travel using the common modes to do so, so that's not unscriptural. But to try to use any of the beforementioned to try to justify a "Christian" military is incorrect. It's just another attempt at baptizing paganism like Constantine did. I don't believe his vision of a cross and hearing a voice tell him "In this sign conquer" was of God at all; no more than Mary appearing to little children at Fatima and telling them to say the rosary.
          Last edited by rapt; October 15, 2002, 08:26 AM.



          Revelation 22
          14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

          15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

          Comment


          • Re: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7

            Originally posted by Explosived
            Redeemed, I have been told over and over that everyone has their own Bible, WHEN are they going to start to read and study it and get their heads out of their critical apparatus?
            By "get their heads out of their critical apparatus" I am assuming that you are making a veiled reference to a lewd and profane phrase commonly used by the world. I am disappointed.

            You constantly accuse people of being ignorant or denying the truth, but you fail to defend your position from the scriptures. Bible-believing folks want Biblical defenses.

            Comment


            • Both Babylon and Asseria bore the sword of the Lord. They were both USED by God, but neither were saved. They were later DESTROYED. God can use the BASEST of men, for we see in Daniel the Word saying that he sets up the basest to rule over men. Isn't that evidenced by the fact that God rules the universe, yet he allowed such criminals as Nero, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, the Ayatol Komini, and many many more evil men to rule?

              So what does Romans 13 mean when it says "He is the minister of God for thee to good"? Does this only apply to "good" rulers? I don't think so! God uses the most evil to do His work, like when he sent Babylon to DESOLATE Jerusalem, and later Rome to do the same thing! God accomplished what He saw as "good" to destroy those bloodthirsty, self-deceived hypocrits who hated Him. But He also protected His own, the remnant was saved in both cases.

              So there's my interpretation of Romans 13. I don't believe for one minute that there is any indication that just because God uses a military or a police force that the individuals are saved because they are called "the minister of God".



              Revelation 22
              14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

              15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

              Comment


              • Hmm, they never used the computer to pass on doctrine either, guess we had all better just shut up then. Using the computer is just not Biblical.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rapt But to try to use any of the beforementioned to try to justify a "Christian" military is incorrect.
                  There is a difference in a "Christian military", as you use the term, and Christians being in the military. God ordained civil authority, including militaries, just as he ordained marriage and the church. It is a good institution, as is everything God creates and ordains. God gave specific principles of operation to each institution He ordained. When those principles are followed, His institutions are beautiful things indeed. However, all of God's institutions can be abused -- the government, the church, and the family. God doesn't prevent their abuse.

                  To say that a Christian should not be in government, or the military, makes as much sense as saying Christians shouldn't be in a marriage or in church government! If the opposition arises because Christians may be required to kill, you fail to acknowledge the separation of authority and responsibility among God's institutions. God did not tell the elders of the church to "bear the sword". The authority and responsibility for execution of criminals was specifically delegated to the government. The authority and responsibility for defending a nation was specifically delegated to the government, not individuals or the church.

                  God never intended the Church to take up arms and form a military -- a "Christian military" as you mentioned. That responsibility falls to the government. God never intended the elders of the church to take up a rod against other people's children. That responsibility falls to the parents.
                  I don't believe his vision of a cross and hearing a voice tell in "In this sign conquer" was of God at all.
                  Nor do I. Anything done "in God's name" that is contrary to God's Word is not of God.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rapt So what does Romans 13 mean when it says "He is the minister of God for thee to good"? Does this only apply to "good" rulers? I don't think so! God uses the most evil to do His work, like when he sent Babylon to DESOLATE Jerusalem, and later Rome to do the same thing! God accomplished what He saw as "good" to destroy those bloodthirsty, self-deceived hypocrits who hated Him. But He also protected His own, the remnant was saved in both cases.
                    Rapt,

                    Yes, God can use good and evil men to His purposes. However, He intended government to be Godly. He did not ordain corruption. His description of government in Romans 13 is His INTENDED role, not necessarily the reality. Just as Christians who have died to sin and arise to walk in newness of life do not always demonstrate that in their lives, so governments do not always act as "ministers of God for good". God also intended government to NOT bear the sword in vain, but they often do so by not executing criminals when they should. Thus injustice reigns in a society.
                    So there's my interpretation of Romans 13. I don't believe for one minute that there is any indication that just because God uses a military or a police force that the individuals are saved because they are called "the minister of God".
                    Did someone state or infer that individuals in the military or police force are saved because they are called "the minister of God"? I must have missed that. Being "the minister of God" simply means that God ordained them to carry out His purposes in civil government, whether they do or not.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Re: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7

                      Originally posted by Redeemed
                      By "get their heads out of their critical apparatus" I am assuming that you are making a veiled reference to a lewd and profane phrase commonly used by the world. I am disappointed.

                      You constantly accuse people of being ignorant or denying the truth, but you fail to defend your position from the scriptures. Bible-believing folks want Biblical defenses.
                      Redeemed, I have never considered you a Bible believer in the slightest.

                      The FACT remains that this statement by Jaltus, "There is also no precedent for Christians to pray in Jesus' name. There is also no precedent for meeting on Sundays." is false according to the Holy Bible. Anyone who has ever studied or read the Bible knows that.
                      Job 26
                      2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?
                      3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
                      4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
                      5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Re: Re: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Timothy 3:7

                        Originally posted by Explosived Redeemed, I have never considered you a Bible believer in the slightest.
                        Ouch! Feel better now?

                        Comment


                        • Probably not. I think he doesn't get enough fibre and it makes him irritable.

                          Comment


                          • God ordained civil authority, including militaries, just as he ordained marriage and the church. It is a good institution, as is everything God creates and ordains. God gave specific principles of operation to each institution He ordained. When those principles are followed, His institutions are beautiful things indeed.
                            Redeemed, surely you have never been in the military.

                            New military slogan:

                            """""Join now, it's a beautiful thing."""""
                            Though I be the least of all His servants, nevertheless I am a servant.

                            Comment


                            • hey, i think they should try that.

                              Comment


                              • How about this one?

                                Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

                                Comment

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