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BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale IV - JALTUS vs. s9s27s54

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  • Thanks, Arminian, for this EXCELLENT expose` on Calvinism:

    http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm


    Jeremiah 17:5

    Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

    Jer 7:8

    Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.

    9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;

    10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?

    11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
    Last edited by rapt; October 12th, 2002, 05:39 AM.



    Revelation 22
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    Comment


    • Calvin was correct in killing Servitus, the man denyed the Trinity and was told to stay away from Geneva or he would be killed. Coming back was just plain stupid.
      Dare I say that I'm non-trinitarian. You could have leaned something from Evangelion on this one.

      The police on the east coast are looking for the common denominator for the sniper killings. Shall we suggest non-trinitarian.
      Though I be the least of all His servants, nevertheless I am a servant.

      Comment


      • <shakes his head>

        My point, oh prognosticators and judges of myself, was that Servitus was tried according to the laws of the town and BANISHED! He was told that he would be killed upon returning, and the man BROKE THE LAW BY RETURNING!

        Are you telling me that he was right to go against the law of the land? Try reading Romans 13!

        By the way, rapt and Rev, who are you to question my salvation? Are you God? Do you stand in His place?

        I have a lot more to say to rapt and his little sidekick, but I will hold it in for now.
        For Greek conversion,

        Comment


        • Subtraction and addition...

          Originally posted by Jaltus
          <shakes his head>

          My point, oh prognosticators and judges of myself, was that Servitus was tried according to the laws of the town and BANISHED! He was told that he would be killed upon returning, and the man BROKE THE LAW BY RETURNING!
          Thanks for bringing that to light, Jaltus.

          And it's a classic example of what happens when you fail to look at all the facts. The details left out tend to gang up and leave teeth marks in your glutes.

          And, while I have your attention (Solly, you might want to read this, too), I've done some more work into getting to the bottom of this "Unrevidiert" problem I came across with the Luther 1545 versions found online.

          A Dr. Michael Bolsinger seems to be the source for a lot of the electronic texts (found at luther-bibel-1545.de, a few other sites, and used in Bible programs like the Sword Project and Elbiwin). Now, I discovered that his source document is the 1545 printed by Hans Lufft in Wittenberg. That is the exact version I have on my shelf.

          If that is the case, then my question is, how can he honestly advertise his text as "unrevised," when it seems he has deliberately added a verse (1. John 5:7) not found in the original?

          I sent him an email asking, politely, for an explanation for this. I'll let you guys know what sort of response I get.

          He's also done some other changes as well, for example, In the original, Mt. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30 leave out the "outmost darkness" found in Luther versions before and after the 1545. He revises them to conform with the other versions. This flat-out disqualifies the text he presents as "unrevised," from what I've gathered so far.

          Please keep in mind that my big issue is integrity in scholarship. Whether or not 1 John 5:7 should belong in the Bible is another debate entirely. The main concern I have here is over transmitting, accurately, what was actually found in Luther's 1545.

          jth
          The free world may be gross, vulgar, and immoral, but that is not something that the slave world can fix

          --Jeff Cooper

          Comment


          • If Jaltus can "judge" that Calvin was "correct" to kill Servetus, then I can judge by his words whether he knows God or if he has murder in his heart. If I and others have not this right, then the bible is a lie. I'll let God be true, and every man that denies His Word and the rights He gives His church be a liar.

            I continue to see hypocrits wresting Romans 13 to their own destruction, as they do also the other scriptures, just like Peter said they would.

            If the laws of any land exalt themselves over the law of God, no Christian is under obligation to keep such laws! If the law of a land requires a Christian to MURDER someone, better to die than to disobey God.

            Had the Germans of Nazi Germany been committed to Jesus Christ more than to Hitler and their own prejudice, they would not have incured the guilt of the MURDER of eight million innocent Jews.

            CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE. NO MAN CAN SERVE TWO MASTERS. CEASAR IS NOT GOD!
            Last edited by rapt; October 12th, 2002, 06:24 PM.



            Revelation 22
            14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

            15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rapt
              Had the Germans of Nazi Germany been committed to Jesus Christ more than to Hitler and their own prejudice, they would not have incured the guilt of the MURDER of eight million innocent Jews.
              Some were, but thank you for that bit of hindsight, rapt.

              jth
              The free world may be gross, vulgar, and immoral, but that is not something that the slave world can fix

              --Jeff Cooper

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rapt
                If Jaltus can "judge" that Calvin was "correct" to kill Servetus, then I can judge by his words whether he knows God or if he has murder in his heart. If I and others have not this right, then the bible is a lie. I'll let God be true, and every man that denies His Word and the rights He gives His church be a liar.

                I continue to see hypocrits wresting Romans 13 to their own destruction, as they do also the other scriptures, just like Peter said they would.

                If the laws of any land exalt themselves over the law of God, no Christian is under obligation to keep such laws! If the law of a land requires a Christian to MURDER someone, better to die than to disobey God.

                Had the Germans of Nazi Germany been committed to Jesus Christ more than to Hitler and their own prejudice, they would not have incured the guilt of the MURDER of eight million innocent Jews.

                CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE. NO MAN CAN SERVE TWO MASTERS. CEASAR IS NOT GOD!
                Well I love Calvin and the Psalms... I reckon that makes me murderer by proxy twice.

                HITCH

                Comment


                • If the laws of any land exalt themselves over the law of God, no Christian is under obligation to keep such laws! If the law of a land requires a Christian to MURDER someone, better to die than to disobey God.
                  Quick question Rapt, Should Christians die as lambs or buy guns and fight to the death?
                  Though I be the least of all His servants, nevertheless I am a servant.

                  Comment


                  • Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's,
                    and unto God the things which be God's. Luk 20:25

                    Comment


                    • Murder or execution ?

                      Rapt
                      Do you recognise the diffrence between murder & execution ?

                      You may not agree with the laws under which an execution takes place, but the state has authority to make laws, & wield the sword. Calvin was not a murderer, but approved (reluctantly) an execution.

                      An ongoing problem is whether the state has authority to make laws to enforce conformity to an established religion. The believer is in that case required to disobey man's law & obey God.

                      There is a lot of mileage in whether the US church-state separation results in greater support of the state by the church than the UK established church, which nowadays frequently speaks against the govenment.
                      Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
                      21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

                      In Christ,

                      Ian

                      Comment


                      • If Jaltus can "judge" that Calvin was "correct" to kill Servetus, then I can judge by his words whether he knows God or if he has murder in his heart. If I and others have not this right, then the bible is a lie. I'll let God be true, and every man that denies His Word and the rights He gives His church be a liar.
                        Really? So I can say, according to the laws of Geneva (which you can find if you try even a little) that Servetus was wrong to come back and the Calvin was legally justified (I said nothing about morally) to execute him, and you are telling me that gives you the right to say I am not a Christian?

                        Do you even read the Bible?

                        I have never denied the Bible, and in fact I have stuck to it in order to make my point. You, however, have no texts supporting your right to judge my heart. Calvin was the law in Geneva. therefore, when he tells someone that they will be executed for coming back, I can only say that he is within his rights to have a criminal (Servetus became a crimnal when he broke his banishment) exectued according to the laws of his city.

                        Calvin was legally correct.

                        rapt is morally wrong. You have no right to judge my heart or salvation.

                        rapt, you sound an awful lot like a Pharisee, claiming that only you are holy and everyone else is a sinner, that only you understand scripture. I know it is obvious to everyone else here that you do not understand scripture, for you obviously know not love, and love is from God, and everyone that loves is born of God. But you LOVE NOT, and therefore do not know God.

                        Maybe if you showed love ever on this board, I would be less inclined to question your sanctification. I do not know you well enough to talk about your salvation, but your fruit is surely lacking. If you cannot see that, please pray about it.

                        Just because this is a message board where you get to be annonymous does not give you the right to check your spirituality at the door. God still knows you, and God is still looking at your heart.

                        May the Lord forgive me for how I am feeling right now.
                        For Greek conversion,

                        Comment


                        • Rapt, read James 4:11ff and come back and tell us if you really think you are wise enough to take Christ's place in judgement. I respectfully submit that James is quite right and that for you to do so is the hight of arrogance and shows the worst contempt for God.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Murder or execution ?

                            Originally posted by Ian Day
                            An ongoing problem is whether the state has authority to make laws to enforce conformity to an established religion.
                            Every state enforces some established religion by definition.
                            There is a lot of mileage in whether the US church-state separation results in greater support of the state by the church than the UK established church, which nowadays frequently speaks against the govenment.
                            The concept of "separation of church and state" is false. No such separation exists and never has. The American people have accepted a lie which allowed the government to enforce their own religion while allowing Christians to believe that Christianity remained the underlying religion of our government. Christians, for the most part, bought it -- hook, line, and sinker.

                            Every government that has ever existed has enforced some moral code or belief system. When a government is faced with determining the "rightness" or "wrongness" of a matter, it makes that determination upon some belief system -- some religion. So, in essence, every government is the enforcement arm of some religion. That religion can be ascertained by examining the laws of the land.

                            Comment


                            • LOVE AND CHARITY

                              Originally posted by Jaltus
                              Yuo do know that the KJV mistranslated "love" as "charity," don't you?

                              Agapao and agape mean love, not charity (well, at least how charity is used today).


                              Note in 1 Corinthians 13 we have what has been called the "love" chapter. Well, it is a love chapter, but the word "love" is not actually there. The word used in Chapter 13 is slightly different. It is the word "charity". Though love and charity are synonymous in a general sense, if we look closer we will see that they are slightly different in some ways.

                              In the New Testament the word "love" is mentioned 86 times and the word "charity" is mentioned 26 times. What is the difference between these words?

                              Love originates from God, for "....God is love" (1 John 4:8).

                              "Love" is an attribute of God, along with his holiness and justice. "Love" is the affection of God towards us and was manifested to us when God sent His Son to shed his precious blood, and die on Calvary's tree, to pay the penalty of our sins.
                              "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." (1 John 4:9)
                              And only because He "first loved us" can we love Him. "We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

                              Now "charity" has more to do with our relationship to our brother, whereas "love" has more to do with our relationship to God.

                              In 1 Corinthians 12, 13, 14, we are dealing with the subject of gifts, the way we can give of ourselves to the edifying of one another. Right in the middle of this dialogue we have "charity". Charity has to do with giving, with edifying one another. When we look at various verses regarding charity, fellow believers are directly linked:

                              1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."

                              2 Thessalonians 1:3 "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth".

                              2 Peter 1:7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity."

                              1 Timothy 4:12 "Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity."

                              So we see that love is more related to an individual in relation to God and charity is more related to an individual in relation to others.

                              Love is Godward.

                              Charity is Manward.

                              And lest we forget, the word charity has always had that age old meaning "To give to the needy". So 1 Corinthians 13 is a love chapter, but it is more so a charity chapter.

                              1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity".
                              Job 26
                              2 How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?
                              3 How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
                              4 To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
                              5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.

                              Comment


                              • Calvin and all the other people that we as Christians are divided over.

                                This is not good to follow any other than Jesus and His word, following men and their words only divide Christians.

                                1 Corinthians 1
                                10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
                                11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
                                12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
                                13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

                                Was John Calvin crucified for you? The reformers have atempted to divide Christ, and men are still taking up sides. And people like rapt who do not go to one side or the other are still being judged by the side takers.

                                Let's look at some fruit here while we are at it:
                                Servetus, a friend of Calvin, returned a copy of the Instutions to Calvin who sent it to him. Servetus made notes in the margins,(we do not know what the notes were, the evidence was destroyed) and this was his crime which led to his demise. Calvin got a Bible and wrote notes in the margins, this is the doctrine that he forced on all that were in Geneva.


                                Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

                                Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

                                It is very clear in the light of the Bible that we should not follow men but we should strive to keep Jesus and His Word as the head of the church.

                                The marginal notes of Calvin and his gang were spreading through Europe.
                                The King James Bible was made to remove marginal notes. I find it interesting that this thread about the KJV wound its way around to Calvin and his marginal notes.

                                Comment

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