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BATTLE TALK - Battle Royale III ~ Dee Dee vs. Jerry

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  • Another solid post by Dee Dee.


    Reading her post brought another point I hadn't considered.

    Dee Dee said, "If Jerry wants to support the idea that Matthew 12:45 and Matthew 23:36 are referring to the whole Jewish race, then he has just condemned ALL Jews of ALL time as hideously wicked, demonized, and guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth. "

    This is true if we are to accept Jerry's idea of the genea interpretation in this passage. Jerry's idea for this interpretation has been proven with countless witnesses to be false and even illogical but I think he cannot admit it and digs the his hole deeper and deeper.

    If we accept Jerry's interpretation of genea (generation) in this context/passage then Jerry's idea of future blessings and promises being given to Israel contradicts what he claims this Scripture is saying.

    If Matthew 12:45, 23:36 means Israel as a whole nation and NOT a specific time then Israel surely receives a curse NOT a blessing. They are doomed NOT saved.

    Dee Dee's answers to the Lord coming in the clouds is Scriptural but this is THE HARDEST part to understand I think. I know it is for me.

    I hope this is the focus of the next couple posts.

    The poll is tied.

    Is their anyone that is still waiting to cast their vote?
    Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

    Comment


    • But mrsnacks, you can't be "on fire" or be a "soul winner", or "believe in sola scriptura" if you think like THAT, now can you??


      I'm going to go vote again and break the tie.



      Revelation 22
      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

      Comment


      • Sola,
        mrsnacks did a fine job on "soon" so I'll leave that be.

        Psalm 110 will not go away even if you ignore it. It is still there offereing Biblical contradiction to your belief.

        Acts 7 :55-56??? What is your point? Jesus is standing, so Psalm 110 is wrong???

        In this verse you quote where is Jesus? At the right hand of God! Maybe Jesus is standing to show honor for Steven's courage, who knows, but He is still at the right hand.


        2 Thess 1:7-10. There two ways that we can go here.

        1) What is there in this verse that says it is talking about the same events that Revelations is?? (While I agree with you that it is, it is possible that it actually is not.)

        2) Let us assume it is talking about the same events. What is there in here that did not happen in 70 AD?

        Verse 7 includes OT imagery of Judgment. Dee Dee handles this very well in her latest post.

        Verse 8. Where the Jews following the Gospel? No the Priests had rejected Christ and were killing Christians. I like the reference here to flame, how was the Temple destroyed? Why it burned down.

        Verse 9. 70 AD sounds like punishment to me.

        Verse 10. So has Christ been glorified in his saints and admired since 70 AD. Why yes, the church keeps getting bigger and bigger.

        Comment


        • To All: I do apologize for coming off in a little harsh there earlier. I will give a reason, which is not an excuse. It gets so frustrating sometimes in communication when someone doesn't see what I see and to me it's so obvious. Sort of like the emperor has no clothes. But I've realized that the Lord has been very patient with me in my lifetime being very merciful and forgiving in my disobedience and ignorance and I should extend the same to other brothers and sisters. It's hard when the others come off a little cocky, sarcastic and rude as in the case of Sola Scriptora. He started my tractor and I went off. But the truth is no one can drive us crazy ,or get us that upset unless we give them the keys. We should never hand anyone the keys. So when I read the debate and Dee Dee by the way is doing a wonderful job slicing and dicing at the low hanging grapes of futurism, and I see Jerry and Sola Scriptora responses defending a view I personally think and believe has more holes than a thousand Krispy Kreme doughnuts , ( man I'm hungry) I am astounded. The doughnuts made taste great, but they are not good for your health.Take a look at some of the many prophecy books out there in the past 30 years with that futurist view and tell me something ain't wrong. Cobra helicopters are the "locusts" in Revelation ; Jack Van (broken record) Impe and Rexella for goodness sake with his Jesus is coming any day now lecture for the past 20 some years and his altar calls to the unbelievers to come to Christ before it's too late begging them to come . Is that the way to present the Gospel message ?? It's by the power of the Holy Spirit, that one's eyes are opened , not by appeals to emotion and fear based works evangelism. This is the christianity I was taught and practiced for many years. And I had to spend many years praying ,unlearning and diligently studying (thanks to the leading of the Holy Spirit ) to release me from all these untruths. Thanks to Gary Demar, Greg Bahnsen and Dee Dee for turning my arguments for my futurism to mush. Please everyone, read what Dee Dee is saying in the debate. Take her seriously . Pray to the Lord about the truth of the matters discussed concerning this "Last Days Madness." Read the works of Josephus (it's free on the web) about what took place in 70 AD and look me straight in the eye and tell me that wasn't the Great Trib. Read Matthew 24 in context and ask, who is Jesus talking to ??? Is He talking about the end of the world or the end of the age ?? Is the Great Trib a local event or global. Where's the rapture in those passages??? Do you see anything about the temple must be rebuilt in any of those verses ? Does it make sense that Jesus would be telling the Disciples about events in the 21st century that had nothing to do with them and that present generation ?? Would it make sense that God would seek vengeance upon that generation of Jews who crucified the Son and rejected Him??? If some gang of thugs beat up and murdered your son or daughter and you found out who they were . What sense would it make to not judge them and to let them go , but take it out on their future (2000 years now) distant relatives. What would our criminal justice system be like if Congress would tomorrow pass a law that the one who commits murder and is found guilty of that crime, the punishment would be that we would seek the death penalty not on the person who committed the crime of murder , but a distant relative 2000 years from that day . How can anyone defend the writings of LaHaye , Lindsey , concerning prophecy and say it's the gospel truth. There are numerous false predictions and redefining terms all thru their books and tapes. But no christian talk show host has the guts to call them on it. Why ?? And Jerry is defending that worldview. I heard James White answer a critic in a debate that we've been living in the last days for the past 2000 years. How much sense does that make ?? Words become meaningless when they don't mean what they are supposed to mean. If I say to you I'll see you in a day . I define a day being it could mean tomorrow, 5 days from now or even 20 years from now. I think you get the drift. I know this is rather lengthy , but I am away a lot and don't get the chance to respond almost daily like some of you. But I got a lot off my chest. Both Jerry and Dee Dee are doing a great job making the debate a classic on TOL. But my vote is for Dee Dee.

          Comment


          • Jack S : Good to see you are still around these parts. It's funny . When I held to the futurist view I used to along with my futurist friends get excited when news of the rebuilding of the Jewish temple was mentioned by Jeffries or Lindsey. Didn't the Romans destroy the temple in 70 AD as prophecied by Jesus? Wasn't it left desolate ? Is not the temple of our bodies the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit ?? Why should anyone be excited ,now that I look back, that some Jews in Israel have been planning now for how long in rebuilding the very temple that Jesus had destroyed in judgement. Isn't the planning of the temple and the reinstitution of sacrifices an abomination to God ?? If the Trib is future as Jerry holds to in the debate. Why is it that futurists haven't done anything to stop Jews from going to Israel if such a terrible holocaust will take place there where millions will lose their lives ? Doesn't God's word say that those who reject the Son , rejects the Father ?? So doesn't that mean they (the unbelieving Jew ) have a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible ?? When I was involved as a futurist, we would talk against the atheists, skeptics, the cults ,but when it came to the unbelieving Jew , it was like you could not say anything critical of them or Israel as a nation . We go soft on them . Jesus wasn't soft on them. Why is that we do ??? We say to the Mormon and Jehovah Witness that they have a different Jesus and that Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. So isn't it true of present day Judaism that even their God is not the God of Christianity ??? Just some thoughts .
            Last edited by mrsnacks; September 4th, 2002, 07:24 AM.

            Comment


            • I can't believe people really think like Dee Dee!

              I hate to be rude but her argument is awful!

              Preterists completely miss "the Plot" of the Bible.
              Oh, wise guy eh?

              Comment


              • Novice : Saying an argument is awful doesn't make it awful. What is your argument ?? How do preterists miss the so called plot of the Bible ?? Answer our arguments. You are not being rude by the way . You are being a coward and your not operating biblically. If we preterist are so wrong in missing the plot of the Bible , than show us lovingly the error of our ways being that you know the "plot." Anyone can say anything , but do you have the support for what you believe or are your feet firmly planted in mid- air ?? Don't chicken out and cry sheep. Look forward to your response.

                Comment


                • Jack made a very good point, I too agree that we should all pray that we may know the truth concerning this matter. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

                  The debate has already established some fine points and I will try to lay them out as unbiasedly as I can.

                  #1The Temple spoken of in the Olivet Discourse is the same Temple that stood during that discourse and the same temple that fell during 70 AD.
                  * Even Jerry has agreed this is so right from the beginning but later he argues that due to continuity a new temple would also be the same temple.
                  > Yet he has failed to provide Scripture of yet a third temple.
                  > Jesus asked His disciples to LOOK at the Temple that was then standing and explained to them that not ONE stone would be left upon another.
                  * Futurists may have difficulty understanding what Jesus said but I am SURE the Lord's Apostles knew EXACTLY what was happening when they saw the Temple razed in 70 AD "WITHOUT ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER"
                  * To follow logically with Jerry and the Scripture we must then argue that not only will there be another exact and precise occurance of the 70 AD destruction( with No Scripture) but that the 3rd Temple will be built of the SAME STONES as the one that fell.

                  When one looks at this logically and Scripture and history both verify it's meaning and significance the answer is rather obvious. But due to hardness of heart and through much covetessness of hoping and waiting for imaginations to be justified one needs to ignore ALL Scriptural exhortation and historical documentation to simply follow the imaginations of the heart (which by the way are exceedingly wicked).

                  It would be almost likened to the unbelieving Jews who saw ALL the prophets and ALL the LAW testify that Jesus IS Messiah but yet DENY ALL WITNESSES and still wait for the Messiah.

                  Why can futurists see this as vainity YET themselves love vanity?

                  This MUST be the reason Disps preach so fervently that the Jews shall be saved, as if their vainity and imaginations will someday IN THE FUTURE be JUSTIFIED.

                  Another Gospel?

                  #2 The use of the word generation can either mean "contemporaries" or "race of people".
                  * By it meaning "race of people" the futurists and Jerry contradict their own plan of salvation saying that:
                  > The entire race of Jews will be guilty of ALL righteous blood - this of course was climaxed by the murder of Jesus who is everlasting righteousness.
                  > The entire race of Jews will be saved and receive promises regardless of their acceptance of Messiah.
                  * By it meaning "contemporaries" the preterist confirms that the generation that murdered the Everlasting Righteousness will be guilty of killing ALL righteousness.
                  > This not only makes sense but when you look it actually seems fitting for the crime. The punishment fits the crime, God is justified.
                  > This also puts the time frame in perspective and prophecy is justified because it WAS during that generation that judgement fell on the Jews.

                  The tribulation of the Jews brought on by the Roman armies were extremely terrible. The historian Josephus records of this time that one woman had killed and roasted her infant son. After she had eaten half she hid the other half. The starving Jews then smelled the scent of flesh and would hace killed her if she hadn't shown them where she kept it. She uncovered the little body and said, "Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not pretend to be more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother." The men left the house trembling.

                  But even Moses spoke of this time:

                  De:28:53: And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
                  De:28:54: So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
                  De:28:55: So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
                  De:28:56: The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
                  De:28:57: And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.

                  The Great Tribulation is OVER. Dee Dee's points are not only Scriptural but can be historically proven. Jerry has not even painted a picture of what and why and how the Trib will be future but through some vague reasoning has crafted some abstract art ALL HIS OWN that no one can understand.
                  Last edited by Revelation717; September 4th, 2002, 09:58 AM.
                  Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                  Comment


                  • Jack,

                    Your in Dayton, Ohio? I'm in Columbus. We're neighbors!
                    Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Revelation717
                      Jack,

                      Your in Dayton, Ohio? I'm in Columbus. We're neighbors!
                      And, I'm about 50 miles west of Cincinatti. Cool!
                      They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles. -- Isaiah 40:31

                      Vegetarian - Indian word for lousy hunter


                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • I'm sorry if my foolishness caused anyone to think that I actually did vote twice. I wouldn't if I could. I was only kidding.



                        Revelation 22
                        14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                        15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                        Comment


                        • Jack; This was my ENTIRE brief response to the Ps 110 point:

                          "Without citing the verses, remember that God said in both Testaments that HE WOULD GATHER the nations to the great Day of battle. It says it in Rev also. Now if God gathers the last of His enemies to a place, and Jesus comes and squashes them, isn't that the same thing?

                          Otherwise how do you explain this:

                          Acts 7:55-56
                          55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus STANDING on the right hand of God,

                          56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man STANDING on the right hand of God."

                          You ignored my first part, and fastened on the second. Why? I think the first part answers your objection, just like I did on the "kingdom Offer" objection you raised.

                          Acts 7 is an example that your citation of Ps 110 does not preclude our Lord doing things others than being SEATED at The Father's right Hand. Myt point is that ye Preterists are being hyper literal here, and Acts 7 shows it. We aren't even out of the first year since Pentecost and already The Lord is doing things contrary to your ideas of Ps 110.

                          Psalms 110 DOES NOT hog-tie the Lord in a chair until certain things happen. Obviously it is a general statment, and can be unltimatley fulfilled any way God pleases, preterists not withstanding!

                          In Revelation One, who comes to the Isle of Patmos to visit John? Why bless my soul, its the Lord Jesus, plainly not complying with the Preterists interpretation of Ps 110!

                          And in chaptes 4 and 5? Well John sees the Father in His throne, and He also sees the four beasts, the 24 elders around the throne, but where is the Lord Jesus??? Where did He go? He is NOT THERE!

                          So by Revelation 4, In God's mind, Jesus enemies are made His footstool for we have entered the DAY OF THE LORD. No? Whatever, but your understanding of Psalms 110 is obviously wrong.

                          Hey, maybe the Lord isn't there because he left to rapture His saints??? Specualtion? Maybe, but it is better than misapplying Ps 110!

                          Chapter 5? At the right Hand of the Father is---not our Lord Jesus, BUT A BOOK no one is worthy to open. Suddenly a Lamb appears IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE and takes the book and will open it. Ps 110 still cannot shackle the Lamb the way preterists wish, so they can DISPROVE dispensationalism! Jesus just keeps ignoring their interpretations.

                          We get to chap 14, and where is the Lord Jesus???

                          Rev 14:1
                          nd I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

                          What happened? I guess we're in the Day of the Lord, and everything has changed in heaven and earth. Later in the Chapter, our Lord leaves heaven AGAIN:

                          Rev 14:14-20
                          14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

                          15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

                          16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

                          17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

                          18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

                          19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

                          20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

                          Well So much for pretersits misinterpretation of Psalms 110. You aked for it, and you got it. Praise God. Thank God His Word interprets itself.

                          Now Dispensationalists HAVE NO PROBLEM explaining what is going on in all these chapters, for they are self explanatory and harmonize with other portions of Scirpture.

                          Now friends, this was just a rather elementary refutation of a pretersiost point, MUCH MORE could be said. You all talk big, but no Scriptural substance is in your hot air. You crash like a Lead Zeppelin.

                          LastLy, Peter tells us in PRESENT TENSE:

                          1 Peter 3:22
                          22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
                          KJV
                          Last edited by Sola Scriptora; September 4th, 2002, 02:38 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Rev 717 and rapt:

                            Your posts are a foaming out of nonsense which reveals a total ignorance of how God has used different groups of saints, with different exschatological views and church administration views. It ilso reveals a lack of maturity in discussing these issues, and the fact that you are in the flesh when doing it. You are railing and saying things that are pure ignorance.

                            According to you, I am not born again, and neither is any other Dispensationalist the last 180 years, including R.A. Torrey, Moody, Dehaan, Ironside, Larkin, Andrew Mueller, and the hundreds of millions that not only follwoed Jesus, but believed the disp understanding of Scripture and prophecy.

                            You guys are sectarian and divisive.

                            A knowledgeable, MATURE soul would know that God has used MULITUDES from EVERY THEOLOGICAL CAMP and blessed their sincere endeavors.

                            So I believe in a "different gospel"? That is as stupid as it is false.

                            You boys HAVE TO SAY SUCH THINGS to look right, because your arguments are WEAK and easily falsifiable, as my above post demonstrated for Jack.

                            Now if you want to discuss interpretations as brethren, fine, but these idiotic accusations of Disps believing in a different gospel I will not tolerate.

                            Get your facts staright before you open your mouths, for it is obvious to me you are NOT WELL READ in either church history or Disp literature.

                            Have any of you read Clarence Larkin's DISPENSATIONAL TRUTH? Try refuting that point by point, because no one has ever touched it for over 80 years now!

                            Now again, you need to THINK.

                            You eschatology is that of ROME. The early church fathers were clearly premillenial and dispensational.

                            Your eschatology sits well with apostate Protestants, Dosp does not. It annoys them! Think about that.
                            Last edited by Sola Scriptora; September 4th, 2002, 02:10 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Sola Scriptura:

                              Rev 717 and rapt:

                              Your posts are a foaming out of nonsense which reveals a total ignorance of how God has used different groups of saints, with different exschatological views and church administration views. It ilso reveals a lack of maturity in discussing these issues, and the fact that you are in the flesh when doing it. You are railing and saying things that are pure ignorance.
                              Thank you for that observation. I do think I've been in the flesh at times, and I repent of it now. I've allowed some people's post to aggravate me rather than realizing that I must be gentle with those that haven't been illuminated. It's the goodness of God that leads anyone to repentance, not my harshness. Please forgive me.



                              Revelation 22
                              14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                              15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                              Comment


                              • Jack:

                                Your "interpretation" of 2Thess is frightful! It is clearly WRESTING the plain meaning! Any viewpoint that has to "handle" so many passages cannot be true.

                                Why stop at 2Thess1? Why not write "70AD" ON EVERY SINGLE REFERENCE TO THE LORD'S RETURN??? I mean, that is what you guys do every time you are in trouble!

                                Why not just ELIMINATE the Second coming of Jesus altogether??? Why not? Just write 70AD on them all. They are ALL FULFILLED.

                                Even though our Lord warned of such ideas and said His coming would light up the Sky like lightning, you guys believe in your INVISIBLE COMING IN 70AD, The Watchtower teaches Jesus came back'Invisibly" in 1914, the Adventists teach it was 1844!

                                Hello! You are all wrong, and a little crazy I'm afraid.

                                Only the devil would like to eliminate the idea of the Lord's return from God's people, for it has a purifying-1John 3:3, and prayerful watchful affect on us-Lk 21:36.

                                Your handling of 1Thess 1 is not exegesis, but absolute mangling of it to fit a preconcieved view. A child can see this.

                                Do someomore. I would like to see your mangling tactics on 1Thess 4:13-18. That should be interesting.

                                Then maybe, you can tell us that Titus 2:11-15 does not mean what it says also.

                                Then try 1Thess 1:10. Tell us how THAT refers to 70AD.

                                Comment

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