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BATTLE TALK - Battle Royale III ~ Dee Dee vs. Jerry

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  • I had a post all ready to go and lost it!

    Sola,

    I don't see those disp. denoms as being "on fire" for Jesus but rather teaching everyone " The Antichrist is coming, the antichrist is coming" as well as propagating a number of ideas without Scriptural foundation. I was there, I know. It seems like a paranoid delusion supported by an unfounded and unscriptural thesis.

    Preterists, or those who see Jesus in the 70 weeks and 70 AD as prophetic fulfillment of Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 keep their eyes on NOTHING but Jesus, knowing that the prophecies concerning His return will be just as fulfilled as His prophesied destruction of Jerusalem. It is real just as He lives.

    I liked Dee Dee's analogy of not knowing the day and hour of a child's birth but being able to know the pregnant mother will within a certain length of time WILL HAVE A CHILD. It's rather simple but quite truthful nonetheless.

    Anyone have kids?

    When my wife was expecting we both knew in about 8 or 9 months we'd have a child. Even when her contractions started we were told, "Not today, try walking around" and we did, for hours and hours. Then when we returned and she was admitted it wasn't til 15 hours later my daughter was born. So even when they admitted her we couldn't say "TODAY" and as she laboured the birth we couldn't say "1 more hour" but never knew the day or hour til AFTER the fact.

    Jerry says Dee Dee is speculative and foolish for such statements but you tell me? If you and spouse went to the DR. and he said "Congrats yer gonna be parents" would you call him a fool and say his reasoning was unsound because he couldn't tell you EXACTLY the day and hour that you would be parents?

    Try it some time, see if it flys.
    (Like the junebug in my radiator grill )
    Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

    Comment


    • Sola,

      Are you aware that the foundation of dispensational thinking is heresy? ( This should stir up a hornets nest, but its true and I'm sur ethere are many disp who do not know it, I didn't)

      What? Why yes, Jesus came to offer the kingdom to Israel and if they had accepted it then he would not have gone to the cross! This is the foundation of disp theology and it is out and out heresy! What happens to Psalm 22? What happens to "by his stripes we are healed?

      Did you even read Psalm 110? Which is the most quoted OT verse in the NT. ( Over 13 times!) If God say something 13 times then it is very important to Him!
      Psalm 110 states
      "The Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make all your enimies your footstool."

      Then I Cor 15 quoting Psalm 110 Paul says that Jesus must stay at the right hand until the last enemy is destroyed which is death.

      So how can Jesus be at the right hand of God and at the same down here? Hmm. I'm sorry but this is crystal clear and any theology that contradicts this clear truth is wrong.

      Do you even want to bring up the church in the USA? No you don't want to go there. You don't want to compare Dominion preaching pastors of the Great Awakening to the dribble being preached today. I'll take one Samuel Davies sermon to 100 sermons preached by any disp pastor today. You've probally never even heard of George Whitefield or how about Johnathan Edwards?

      Plus your statement about dead churches is irrrational and unprovable. Don't bring your subjective garbage in here it won't wash. Do you know the difference between a subjective argument and an objective one?

      Comment


      • Dee Dee is completely dominating this debate. Casting my pre-vote for her now.

        Wow 14 votes for Jerry. Do people vote with their head or their hearts in these battle royales? I have no dog in this fight and cannot see how anyone has Jerry winning this one.
        Last edited by Valmoon; September 1st, 2002, 10:28 PM.

        Comment


        • I really appreciate the SOUND reason in both Rev 7:17's and JackS's posts!



          As for the dispy fairy tail of Jews who MIGHT have accepted Christ in the first century and MIGHT have caused Him to NOT have fulfilled scripture, the very THOUGHT is preposterous! Are they more powerfull than GOD? Just who do disps worship, anyway? Certainly not God's Word.

          What was the name of that TV series, where the newpaper comes a day ahead of time, and shows the future? Disps think that if the Jews had believed Christ, then the prophecies concerning Him would have simply DISAPPEARED out of the bible, huh?
          Last edited by rapt; September 2nd, 2002, 07:12 AM.



          Revelation 22
          14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

          15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

          Comment


          • goose with a gap!

            I'm feasting on cooked goose, including the drumstick portion of "that day", the wing of "genea", the thigh of "you", the backbone of "horseback", the craw where "literalism" got so stuck that it killed the goose before it was ever cooked to begin with, with JerryMandarin sause on all of it. MMMmmm! Oooh, that smell! And just think, this is the same goose that will appear again later, only to get cooked again! I mean, really, I'm talking about two seperate geese! Couldn't you tell by the first sentence? Yeah, really, Dee Dee will actually cook this SAME GOOSE again! Watch for the gap! It's there, even though you couldn't see it in my first sentence! USE YOUR IMAGINATION like disps do, you'll see it!
            Last edited by rapt; September 2nd, 2002, 06:14 AM.



            Revelation 22
            14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

            15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

            Comment


            • rapt,
              Thank you.

              Comment


              • Rapt, just be sure to pre-heat the oven at 450 and let simmer for 2000+ years. MMMM, I'm hungry.
                Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                Comment


                • Of COURSE, Rev 7:17, you DO realize that Dee Dee brings out an excellent point, showing how the SAME MATERIALS must be used to rebuild the disp's imaginary futuristic temple, since Jesus said "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

                  Now we know He wasn't talking about some partial WALL that surrounded the city when He said "There shall not be left here one stone upon another..."; He wasn't saying that EVERY SINGLE stone in Jerusalem would be disassembled and thrown down, was He? He was ONLY talking about the TEMPLE itself, right? Then why do we so often hear disps claiming that the great trib in Matt 24 couldn't yet be fulfilled since there's still part of a city wall left standing? Why can't they get that simple thing strait?

                  Yeah, right, so Jerry must insist that the same materials used to build the temple that was destroyed in 70AD will also be used to rebuild after his imagined 2000+year gap. Man, his goose was cooked 2000 years ago, and it was prophecied seventy weeks before THAT by Daniel!
                  Last edited by rapt; September 2nd, 2002, 05:15 PM.



                  Revelation 22
                  14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                  Comment


                  • Well, rather than following the hints from some that would already want to censor me from posting here, I will ignore those kindly advisals and address the errors just posted by our Eschatologically Roman Catholic friends. Don't forget, Post mill was one of the last things God freed the churches from.

                    If you study history, you see the errors of Rome DID NOT ALL LEAVE with Luther.

                    Rev 717:

                    1- Most Protestant churches are liberal and completely apostate. That is a fact.

                    2- Most of these Protestant churches are preterist postmil of some form. That is fact.

                    3- NO Apostate Prostestant churches are Dispensational. They thumb their nose at it. THAT SHOULD TELL YOU ALL SOMETHING!

                    4- tHE MAJORITY OF soul-winning, BIBLE BELIEVING, MISSIONS-MINDED, Jesus-hungry of the last 100 years were DISPENSATIONAL.

                    THAT IS A FACT OF CHURCH HISTORY.

                    Pretersist post mil, is a minority mostly found in dead apostate churches, and a few flickering ones.

                    Jack:

                    My dear friend, I have well heard of the men you mentioned, and even quote from them extensively in the Evangelism Course I have developed. Methinks I have more church histories than you and some hard to find ones from the 1800s. I have over 20 of them. How many do you have?

                    As far as the Kingdom offer, or the postponed Kingdom theory, Have you read Ryrie's response to your type of charges in DISPENSATIONISM TODAY?

                    If you haven't I suggest you do for you really are not aquainted with WHY THEY BELIEVE THIS BEFORE YOU ATTEMPT TO CRITIQUE IT. Fair enough?

                    Now here are some verse for you to ponder:

                    1 Sam 13:13-14
                    13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.

                    14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast

                    Now what happened here???

                    Did God really mean that? Do you mean that the "sure mercies of David", and the prophecies about Christ being seated on "David's Throne" were NOT the original plan???

                    God REPLACED SAUL WITH DAVID BECAUSE OF WHAT SAUL DID???

                    But then how would all these promisies of God from before the foundation of the world come to pass? No bif thing for God! It aint my problem!

                    Did God tell Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN??? Did He MEAN IT???

                    Then what if they didn't???

                    What would have happened wioth the plan of the precious Lamb slain before the foundation of the world???

                    Well?

                    I suggest you think about it for TWO REASONS:

                    1- It is the same type of "heresy" that you say Disp started with

                    2- It shows that the objection is no big deal. Similar problems and objections could then be raised about many Biblical stories and statements


                    Now here is another:


                    Luke 19:37-44
                    37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

                    38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

                    39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

                    40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

                    41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

                    42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

                    43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

                    44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

                    Now then, what is this???

                    Were the Lord's tears REAL??? What if the Jews DID know the day of their visitiation???

                    Sounds like He really wished they did, and wept about it. What if they did then???

                    Yup, same problem.

                    Lastly:

                    Matt 23:37-39
                    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

                    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

                    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

                    Now let me ask once again, was our Lord SINCERE??? Why was He weeping?

                    Because they rejected Him.

                    What if they accepted Him? What then?

                    Would Jesus have gathered them if they received Him. What about the Cross then, because jesus said HE WOULOD HAVE GATHERED THEM, BUT THEY WOULD NOT.

                    Was that a sincere "offer"?

                    Now don't just try to respond to save-face. Think. Pray. Concede the obvious. It IS POSSIBLE that the Kingdom was offered to Israel the first time around. It is possibler God knew they would reject it, but that still doesn't stop Him from offering mercy and pardon to those who reject His merciful overtures, does it?

                    Since God is OMNISCIENT, What is so hard for you to understand? God judged Israel for rejecting Christ and the Kingdom, even though He knew they would.

                    That's why He came at the fulnmess of times.

                    They SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED HIM!!!

                    So your objection is a not well thought out, unscriptural STRAW MAN, intended for SHOCKVALUE, and banking on the readers ignorance of the verses I cited. There are other examples.

                    So, having disposed of this unscriptural objection, let us move on:

                    1- I teach what Edwards and compnay taught on EVANGELISM. I use their AWESOME TEACHINGS ain my course.

                    On those subjects, no one can touch EDWARDS, WHITEFIELD, FINNEY MOODY, BOOTH, WESLEY ETC.

                    Let me ask you, what did they teach the PRIMARY MINISTRY OF THE SPIRIT IS?

                    What did they teach we must do before presenting the gospel to people?

                    What did they say we are to preach?

                    If you don't know, don't tell me you know their sermons and teachings.

                    Well, I'll tell you. They taught the primary ministry of the Spirit in this diespensation is to convict the world of sin. Edwards and others went into great detail describing how the Holy Ghost does this.

                    They taught we are to PREACH THE LAW to the sinner before grace. We are to open God's ten commandments, like TEN CANNONS, to destroy the sinners's self righteousness before giving them the good news. They need conviction, and they need to know how sinful and guilty they are before the Judgement-bar of the Supreme Judge of the Universe.

                    So I listen to them and do what they tuaght. It works! If you get them saved right, they'll live right.

                    I just don't listen to them on the issue of eschatology or the gifts of the Spirit because they didn't have the understanding on those thingsd we do. God has restored these truths over time.

                    Nowe remember this Jack, as great and awesome as these men ands their ministries were, and I suggest ALL CHRISTIANS learn of their soulwinning ways, and I rspect them as HOLY MEN OF GOD... what God has done in the last 100 years from Azuza street to today FAR SURPASSES their glorious work, esp worldwide.

                    And the majority of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF CONVERSIONS worldwide have come through DISPENSATIONAL Pentecostals and Baptists.

                    That is fact.

                    Is America in trouble? Yes.

                    Are we apostate? Yes.

                    Is the answer preterism? Pa-lease!

                    The answer is revival and a thundering proclamation of the soon return of the Lord.

                    Comment


                    • Nowe remember this Jack, as great and awesome as these men ands their ministries were, and I suggest ALL CHRISTIANS learn of their soulwinning ways, and I rspect them as HOLY MEN OF GOD... what God has done in the last 100 years from Azuza street to today FAR SURPASSES their glorious work, esp worldwide.
                      urp

                      I read a well-researched report on the Azuza street revival and all the many heretical fanaitics that it spawned like the money-grubbing A.A.Allen, and some who claimed to be Elijah as did William Brenham (who called the Trinity a doctrine of devils). The Oneness Pentacostals all laud Azuza street as their beginning, don't they? Do they not suppose that (counterfiet) revival to be the restoration of the truth in America in the early 1900's? The confusion we now see in the pentacostal movement is what they dare to call the "anointing" or the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Some pentacostals dare to say that if one doesn't speak in "tongues" that he never received the Holy Spirit. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to soon realize that the "tongues" that are found in those churches are not languages that others can understand at all, like they were in Acts 2. Yet they claim it to be a restoration of the same thing that happened then. It most certainly is NOT. And 1Cor 12 completely refutes the false teaching that EVERYONE will receive the same gift/manifestation. It even clearly says that tongues is the very LEAST of all the gifts, but that everyone receives a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, but it never ONCE says that all receive the manifestation by tongues.
                      Last edited by rapt; September 2nd, 2002, 08:48 PM.



                      Revelation 22
                      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                      15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                      Comment


                      • Sola,

                        1- Most Protestant churches are liberal and completely apostate. That is a fact.

                        2- Most of these Protestant churches are preterist postmil of some form. That is fact.

                        3- NO Apostate Prostestant churches are Dispensational. They thumb their nose at it. THAT SHOULD TELL YOU ALL SOMETHING!

                        4- tHE MAJORITY OF soul-winning, BIBLE BELIEVING, MISSIONS-MINDED, Jesus-hungry of the last 100 years were DISPENSATIONAL.

                        THAT IS A FACT OF CHURCH HISTORY.


                        Where did you get these contradictory facts?

                        And what exactly is your definition of apostacy?

                        Teaching that antichrist is not here like DISPY churches do?

                        1Jo:2:18: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

                        1Jo:4:3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

                        2Jo:1:7: For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

                        They ALL teach that antichrist is ONE MAN who confirms the covenant.

                        BUT SCRIPTURE IS SILENT about this.

                        They teach there will be a 7 year Great Trib.

                        AGAIN, Scripture is silent.

                        They teach there will be a pre-trib Rapture.

                        Jesus' prayer testifies against them.

                        Joh:17:15: I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

                        Most Pentecostal DISPY churches teach one must SPEAK IN TOUNGES in order to be saved. Not only this BUT they think blabbering some unknown jibberish is evidence of being "born again". Women MUST wear skirts, no make-up etc... and follow stringent rules in order to be saved BUT also teach OSAS. Hypocrites if you ask me and the Bible. Do you believe this?

                        1Co:13:8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

                        They also teach that Daniel 9:27 is about the antichrist. Do you believe this?

                        You also said "And the majority of the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF CONVERSIONS worldwide have come through DISPENSATIONAL Pentecostals and Baptists.

                        I was in the Southern Baptist church for awhile and talk about apostate! WOE WOE WOE WOE WOE WOE WOE!

                        They are supposed to be the MOST CONSERVATIVE Protestant church around.

                        Just because they dunk more heads in the tank and get big numbers (Billy Graham) DOESN'T MEAN A THING!

                        And did you know that the Pentecostals and Baptists DON'T even agree with each other on the way to salvation and baptism?

                        SBC's baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost (Spirit, for those that have forsaken the KJV) while Penty's say this Roman Catholic and only those baptized in the name of Jesus are saved (after they speak in tounges/jibberish).

                        Are these people REALLY converted?

                        Ever heard of Endtime Ministries by Irving Baxter? He aslo has a radio show called Politics and Religion where he discusses the rebuilding of the temple, who will be the antichrist, the seven year trib, etc... etc... ONE WORD - PARANIOD! waiting and watching for antichrist. WHERE IS THAT IN THE SCRIPTURE??????

                        They have fallen from the faith once delivered unto the saints.

                        The saints/Apostles knew that antichrist was ALREADY in the world.
                        The saints/Apostles knew there wouldn't be a specific 7 year trib where they could KNOW the day and hour of Jesus' return.
                        The saints knew the temple of God is the body of believers NOT some brick and stone worship house.
                        The saints were preterist in faith. AND THEY WERE SOUL WINNERS! Matter of fact the reason I believe is because of their word.

                        Joh:17:20: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

                        Now Sola, I take it from your name you wont take ANYTHING for truth that IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE, right?

                        The WHOLE DISPY doctrine is EXTRA BIBLICAL FANTASY AND FABLE.

                        Either change your name or change your doctrine.
                        Oh man, would ya look at this...we got alot of work to do!

                        Comment


                        • Rev717:

                          Apparetnly you are mixed up about quite a few things. You DON'T KNOW hat Baptists or pentecostals or Oneness believe.

                          Look at ANY statement of Faith in a Baptist Church or the AOG or most any Charismatic curch and you will see The fundamentals of the faith stated, including salvation by grace through faith.

                          They may differ on Pnuematology, but on all the relevant slavation issuea and the natuer of God, they are the same.

                          Oneness people deny the Trinity and believe you must speak in tongues, etc. They are mixed up.

                          I was not referring to them

                          You apparently haven;t studied pentecostal history too well. They are THE FORCE of world missions. They are solidly Dispensational. These are facts.

                          My definition of Apsotasy is a departing from the fatih. MOST PROTESTANT CHURCHES DENY THE VIRIGIN BIRTH, THE DIETY OF CHRIST, THE INSPIRATION OF SCRIPTURE, AND THE RETURN OF THE LORD IN GLORY AND JUDGEMENT.

                          Their creeds affirm these things, but they don't anymore! And being pretersit postmill helped them get that way.

                          There is a nice big United methodist church here where I live. Totally apostate. The "w2orship leader" is an open homosexual. They are liberals. They are communist sympathizers, and have been for decades.

                          You don't know this? You don't know about the great Apostasy of the various Protestant denominations, and How God has raised up new groups in their place to vcarry the torch to the ends of the earth? Where are you living?

                          Now then to the scriptures you miscited:

                          1Jo:2:18: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

                          This verse PROVES the antichrist has not yet come. John said that the antichrist SHALL COME, but that even nowe are there many little ones running around. It is plain. This verse shows the BIG BOY is yet to come according to John.

                          1Jo:4:3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

                          Once again, you do not read carefully. John here says anyone denying fundamental truths, LIKE PROTESTANT PRETERSIT CHURCHES, are under the SPIRIT of the antichrist. How interesting. Your appeals to scripture shipwreck your ideas!

                          Paul told us THE MAN OF SIN WAS COMING, but said the "muystery of iniquity was already at work" and would continue until the Wicked One was revealed who Jesus Christ Hilself will personally destroy ant His Coming-2Thess 2.

                          And this MAN OF SIN was to come with all kinds of signs and wonders. Didn't happen in John's day frioned. He never even mentioned that these deceivers did any signs. Their error was false doctrine and sinful lifestyles. The big boy with the counterfeit miracles has yet to show up.


                          2Jo:1:7: For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

                          Notice, anyone denying Jesus Christ cming in the flesh is A deciver and AN antichrist, not THE deceiver and THE antichrist. Simple English my friend! Most Protestant xhurxhes again fit this exactly. They deny everything. They are apsotate social clubs where sin and evil abounds.

                          And you omit what Paul and Revelation have to say about the antichrist. It is a man, a wicked miracle performing man! Jesus will persoanlly destroy him and Paul and Revelation reveal. But we don't want to talk facts do we?

                          Your citation of 1Cor 13:8 is for what? To prove that the gifts passed away already???

                          Noice try but they have not! The gifts are here to stay until the perfect comes--Jesus Christ.

                          Thes rest of your post is not really relevant nor factual. Southern Baptists have their problems, that's why its good when some of them go Charismatic! They get some life in them!

                          Comment


                          • AMEN! Well said, Rev 7:17!

                            Ha! Baptist dispies teach ONE way of salvation, while Pentacostal dispies teach ANOTHER GOSPEL! They BOTH teach contrary to the gospel of Christ when they teach dispensationalism. Dee Dee is doing a well thought out job of EXPOSING such fantasies, as so has Rev 7:17.

                            Who else but those who were once DECEIVED by disp doctrine can refute it as well?



                            Revelation 22
                            14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                            15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                            Comment


                            • diSpENSATIONALISM FAILS THE SCRIPTURAL TEST

                              Sola IMAGINATION:

                              My definition of Apsotasy is a departing from the fatih. MOST PROTESTANT CHURCHES DENY THE VIRIGIN BIRTH, THE DIETY OF CHRIST, THE INSPIRATION OF SCRIPTURE, AND THE RETURN OF THE LORD IN GLORY AND JUDGEMENT

                              ...And being pretersit postmill helped them get that way.

                              Give us your reference for such an accusation, Sola I. I didn't see one.

                              I agree most churches are apostate, but not for the reasons you listed. I certainly don't deny any of those things, and preterism doesn't influence me to at all.

                              I believe the pentacostal churches to be just as apostate as the others. You don't have to harbor communist sympathizers or homosexual preachers to be apostate. I'm sure the Judaizers who seduced and bewitched the Galatians into FALLING FROM GRACE didn't...all they did was make the claim that the Jews were still God's Chosen People, and try to JUDAIZE them, similar to what the disps do today!

                              1. Disps claim that a rebuilt JEWISH temple is "the temple OF GOD", totally contrary to the definition of the temple of God given by Paul the Apostle. How could any apostate group like today's Jews build God a temple in the light of Acts 7? God says He knows the BLASPHEMY of those who SAY they are Jews, but aren't, who are actually of the synogogue of satan! (Rev 2:9, 3:9)

                              2. Disps claim that God is a respector of persons who will save unbelieving, rebellious Jews from His Wrath the day Jesus comes in the clouds, but Scripture says He NO respector of persons, and that by the time Jesus comes it will be TOO LATE for ANYONE to be saved.

                              3. Disps deny the fulfillment of Dan 9:24-27 by totally IGNORING the specific time element of the prophecy, and make the Word of God of none effect by claiming that the prophecy of Daniel is still of God even while denying that it was fulfilled in the time it was DETERMINED to be: within 490 LITERAL years. (and they claim to take the bible literally! ) They insert a ridiculous prophecy-denying gap of over 2000 years into the seventy weeks and still claim the prophecy was of God, when scripture says a prophet is FALSE if his prophecy doesn't happen WHEN HE SAYS IT SHOULD. (They thus must claim that Daniel was a liar, or else Gabriel was, which means the Word of God is a lie) They deny that it was Jesus who confirmed the (new) covenant for half of the seventieth week by His miracles during His life, by His prophecied death and resurrection, and for the other half of the week by His continued ministry through the Apostles and the miracles He empowered them to do by the Holy Ghost, and foolishly claim that a future individual antichrist will fulfill the things that Christ Jesus already fulfilled. This is a string of utter BLASPHEMIES of the worst kind.

                              4. Therefore, contrary to your vain OPINION (there's no fact to it at all), ALL disp churches are apostate. Just a casual perusal of any disp writer will prove that multiple scriptures as well as history is denied and fantasy is exalted. I have a copy of John F. Walvoord's "Major Bible Prophecies" that makes me SICK when I see the blasphemy it contains. He even dares to say that Jesus never declared the way of salvation; that it cannot be found in the gospels, but that it CAN be found in the OLD TESTAMENT! Paul called such false teachers "proud, KNOWING NOTHING", and said "from such withdraw thyself" (1Tim 6:3-5!) Like Peter warned, they privily bring in damnable heresies, even DENYING THE LORD that bought them". Many follow their pernicious (destructive) ways...just look at the sales of the heretical "Left Behind" series, and all of Hal Lindsay's goofball predictions, or check out the high ratings Jack Van Impe must be getting. Check out the book sales in the "Christian" bookstores, and see how well all the dispy fairy tales are selling compared to preterist truth, which has been forsaken for FABLES just like Paul said it would be (2Tim 4:3,4)



                              Revelation 22
                              14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                              15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

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                              • Sola,
                                I am amazed by some people who make wild assumptions about people on this board. I am thrilled that you are familuar with Whitefield and Edwards and others from the past. You seem to have a very good grasp of the message they preached. For you truely asked the questions that were key to their preaching. You also are correct that preteristism is not a way to salvation and no one here said it was.

                                Now for the part that amazes me.
                                You said:
                                Methinks I have more church histories than you and some hard to find ones from the 1800s. I have over 20 of them. How many do you have?
                                Very cute using Methinks, you make a statment without any knowledge of what you speak. How in heaven's name do you have any idea what I know or what I have read? This is your continued pattern, making blanket subjective statements that are unprovable. Methinks you do not know the difference between a subjective argument and a objective one. Methinks you need to look a little closer at Whitefield and Edwards.

                                "our hearts are exceedingly deceitful, and desperately wicked; none but the eternal God knows how treacherous they are. "

                                Your post is too long to deal with every point. People in general when online don't want to read novels.

                                First I'll comment that you have ignored my reference to Psalm 110. I'll ask again how can Jesus be at the right hand of God until the last enemy, death is destroyed and at the same time be returning to do the same? Does it not matter to you that it is quoted over 13 times in the NT. Ignoring it will not make it go away.

                                Lastly I'll comment on this. You said:

                                what God has done in the last 100 years from Azuza street to today FAR SURPASSES their glorious work, esp worldwide.
                                More subjective unprovable nonsense. But we can compare the fruit of what was done. The fruit that came from Whitefield and Edwards and many other's from the Great Awakening was the founding of this nation. (Read "Forgotten Founding Father" for proof of this claim) I have no numbers but we all know that this nation has furthered the Gospel throughout the world and brought freedom to many countless millions since 1776 and through the late 1800's. Thus the fruit changed the world! What is the fruit of the last 100 years? 40 million dead babies in this country alone. We have abortion back after the strong church born out of the Great Awakening had it outlawed in this nation. I could go on and on about how the spinless church in America has lost what was gained by the powerful church born out of the Great Awakening. You shall know them by thier fruit.

                                Here is a link to my Loyal Opposition Web page and a article from newsletter 2.
                                http://www.angelfire.com/oh/ProLife/where2.html
                                Last edited by JackS; September 3rd, 2002, 05:36 AM.

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