toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[genuineoriginal]

David asked that the Holy Spirit not be taken from him. Did God take the Holy Spirit from Him? Yes, or no?

You, too, can ask God that the Holy Spirit not be taken away from you.

If you ask with the right motives, you will receive what you ask. If you ask, God will not His Holy Spirit from you because you obey Him and do what is pleasing in His sight.

1 John 3:22 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.​

If you do not ask with the right motives, you will not receive. Despite your asking, God will take His Holy Spirit from you because you really want to continue doing those things that brought His wrath on the children of disobedience.

James 4:3 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

[T]o Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 and shall say,
‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. Isaiah 45:23

You are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption. 1 Corinthians 1:30

I see you couldn't find a single verse that says we must trust on righteousness in order to be saved.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I see you couldn't find a single verse that says we must trust on righteousness in order to be saved.

We trust in Christ and He IS our righteousness....this makes our salvation more certain than practically any english word expresses fully. It is quite simply impossible that His righteousness could fail.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Weak and ignorant people of the faith don't accept OSAS!
Why? Because, they don't trust in the truth that, Christ
paid it all, once and for all and, all they must do is, place
their faith in Him as their Lord and Savior! The indwelling
Holy Spirit does the rest! The naysayers of OSAS feel,
they must add their own good works/deeds in order
to maintain their salvation! They believe, if their
works aren't sufficient, they'll lose their salvation!

Luke 13:24-28 NASB 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27 and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

We trust in Christ and He IS our righteousness....this makes our salvation more certain than practically any english word expresses fully. It is quite simply impossible that His righteousness could fail.

I am having a difficult time trying to find any verses in the scriptures that say what you are saying.

All I can find are ones like this one:

1 John 3:7 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.​

 

[Totton Linnet]

1. cor.2.29.
...that no flesh should glory in His presence... is always good to quote
vs. 30
But of [God] are ye in Christ Jesus who is of God made unto us wisdom and righteousness and SANCTIFICATION and redemption.

So we are made wise and holy as well as saved.

Glory to God.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Christ is the Lord our righteousness.

 

[genuineoriginal]

1. cor.2.29.
...that no flesh should glory in His presence... is always good to quote
vs. 30
But of [God] are ye in Christ Jesus who is of God made unto us wisdom and righteousness and SANCTIFICATION and redemption.

So we are made wise and holy as well as saved.

Glory to God.

That is the same letter that says this:

1 Corinthians 15:34 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.​

 

[Totton Linnet]

That is the same letter that says this:

1 Corinthians 15:34 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.​

Some evangelicals will always interpret these scriptures as saved/lost but they are not...I think ALOT of christian who are saved do not have an awful lot of knowledge of God.

 

[godrulz]

I am a Gentile, to the best of my knowledge, who has been called to the faith expression of Messianic Judaism. Are you a Christian as I am or an accuser of the Body? My use of the Greek or the Hebrew shouldn't affect you one way or the other. TMPOV, anyone who believes in Yeshua is Messianic.

I am a Christian. It is a misunderstanding of the Bible to expect Gentiles to be Jewish-like.

Who has called you to Messianic Judaism? Too many that I know of are legalistic and unbiblical and not effective at reaching Jews.

It is your right to identify with this, but not if aspects of the movement feel it is THE best expression of biblical Christianity for the world and that God intends to turn all Evangelicals to the Messianic movement as a sign of the end times, etc. It can become divisive, sectish, superspiritual arrogant, etc.

 

[Lighthouse]

In other words, you put a blanket over your head and refuse to address the reasons discerning people have problems with OSAS.

Technically they are able to commit any sin, even those that are crimes, and retain their salvation; for it is not theirs to forfeit.

But if one is in Christ they are in the Spirit and not the flesh [wherein sin dwells], so as long as they focus on the Spirit and not the flesh why would they ever want to commit any of those things you listed?

And that is the hypocrisy of OSAS that makes it into a false doctrine.

How is that hypocritical?

 

[IMJerusha]

I am a Christian. It is a misunderstanding of the Bible to expect Gentiles to be Jewish-like.

Yes, heaven forbid we be anything like Yeshua, eh? :chuckle:

Who has called you to Messianic Judaism? Too many that I know of are legalistic and unbiblical and not effective at reaching Jews.

Oh yeah, this is pertinent to the OP!
Godrulz, who leads you on your faith walk? The same Ruach HaKodesh/the Holy Spirit that leads me. Come on!

It is your right to identify with this, but not if aspects of the movement feel it is THE best expression of biblical Christianity for the world and that God intends to turn all Evangelicals to the Messianic movement as a sign of the end times, etc. It can become divisive, sectish, superspiritual arrogant, etc.

I'm so glad the Ruach has your permission to lead me where He wills.
I have no desire to turn all to Messianic Judaism. I'm content that God reaches people where they are and is who He is to all who believe in Him, His Son and the Ruach. I may not agree with all the doctrine man has come up with but I figure God is in control.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes, heaven forbid we be anything like Yeshua, eh? :chuckle:



Oh yeah, this is pertinent to the OP!
Godrulz, who leads you on your faith walk? The same Ruach HaKodesh/the Holy Spirit that leads me. Come on!



I'm so glad the Ruach has your permission to lead me where He wills.
I have no desire to turn all to Messianic Judaism. I'm content that God reaches people where they are and is who He is to all who believe in Him, His Son and the Ruach. I may not agree with all the doctrine man has come up with but I figure God is in control.

I'll give you this much credit; you sure are one angry, obstinate,
contentious, wisecracking, and pretentious individual! Also, you're
extremely unpleasant, that's what I like the most about you!

 

[IMJerusha]

I'll give you this much credit; you sure are one angry, obstinate,
contentious, wisecracking, and pretentious individual! Also, you're
extremely unpleasant, that's what I like the most about you!

Don't worry, you'll get over it!

 

[godrulz]

Paul did not convert people to Messianic Christianity, but to Christ. Gentile believers and churches did not and did not have to bring Jewish elements into their worship. Messianic Judaism may fit Jewish Christians in the first century, but it is not a biblical mandate for modern evangelicals/Gentiles. We are not commanded to perpetuate Jewish things like Feasts (Herbert Armstrong cult makes this mistake), circumcision, etc. Jew/Gentile one in Christ has the NT church looking different than Messianic Judaism or even first century early church made up of many former Jews in transition. There is great danger of legalism, externals, superiority, religion vs freedom in Christ.

It would seem odd to me to go to Africa and have a Gentile from Texas call himself a Messianic Rabbi and bring the Jewish OT elements to his church planting, evangelism, discipleship, etc. There is no mandate or precedence for this. This does not mean we cannot contextualize the gospel for Jewish or Muslim or Chinese people, but we have to distinguish culture from biblical principles. We do not need more denominations, sects, etc. competing, but we need biblical expressions of Church. We do not need to perpetuate circumcision, dietary or ceremonial laws, Passover, but we do need to uphold Lord's Supper, water baptism, moral laws.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Technically they are able to commit any sin, even those that are crimes, and retain their salvation; for it is not theirs to forfeit.

How is that hypocritical?

Matthew 15:7-8 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.​

 

[IMJerusha]

Paul did not convert people to Messianic Christianity, but to Christ. Gentile believers and churches did not and did not have to bring Jewish elements into their worship. Messianic Judaism may fit Jewish Christians in the first century, but it is not a biblical mandate for modern evangelicals/Gentiles. We are not commanded to perpetuate Jewish things like Feasts (Herbert Armstrong cult makes this mistake), circumcision, etc. Jew/Gentile one in Christ has the NT church looking different than Messianic Judaism or even first century early church made up of many former Jews in transition. There is great danger of legalism, externals, superiority, religion vs freedom in Christ.

Please be so kind as to show me where I've put forth a mandate for Messianic Judaism.
God has made no distinction between Jews and Gentiles so why do we? It's foolish, however, to ignore the fact that the Jerusalem Council put forth a need for Gentiles to abstain from foods polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood, having confidence that most Gentiles had heard and would continue to hear God's Law (or as James put it "Moses") preached in every city and so knew it. You also need to understand that Paul didn't convert anyone. Any changing needing to be done in one's heart is done by Ruach HaKodesh.

It would seem odd to me to go to Africa and have a Gentile from Texas call himself a Messianic Rabbi and bring the Jewish OT elements to his church planting, evangelism, discipleship, etc. There is no mandate or precedence for this. This does not mean we cannot contextualize the gospel for Jewish or Muslim or Chinese people, but we have to distinguish culture from biblical principles. We do not need more denominations, sects, etc. competing, but we need biblical expressions of Church. We do not need to perpetuate circumcision, dietary or ceremonial laws, Passover, but we do need to uphold Lord's Supper, water baptism, moral laws.

I think it would be more confusing to folks in Africa to hear someone say that Yeshua's ways are no longer valid today. Are we or are we not grafted into the vine Yeshua, the Son of the God of Israel? If that isn't enough precedence for you, I don't know what would be. I think it would be more confusing for folks trying to figure out who it is they are to worship, Father, Son and Ruach or Paul. Paul is not on my worship list nor is he responsible for any "conversions."
You don't know very much about Messianic Judaism if you think circumcision is pressed. Dietary law?....ever read Mark 7:18-19? Ceremonial laws such as women covering their heads when they pray or prophesy as outlined in 1Cor. 11:5 or the ceremonial law of marriage? And what is wrong with remembering the necessity of the Lamb's blood for salvation which is reflected in Passover as well as the last supper of Yeshua with the twelve. Messianic Jews are baptized with both water and Ruach HaKodesh just like others. You should examine your heart to understand why you are so keen to draw distinctions that God does not. Additionally, it concerns me that you would consider denominations to be in competition with one another. Competition for what? God reaches people where He sees fit, whether that is in Catholicism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, Lutheranism, Messianic Judaism, etc. We're not in competition with each other. We're in the Body together.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Don't worry, you'll get over it!

True, but, I doubt you will!

 

[godrulz]

The Acts 15 issues were concessions of practical wisdom in light of the transitional nature of the early church from a Jewish Christian base to a Gentile (and Jewish) Christian base. They are descriptive of a first century local situation, not a prescription for the normative Church Age. They related to principles of grey areas and not bringing unnecessary offense (Paul adapted to the target audience without compromising truth). They are not injunctions for NT Christianity outside of the first century milieu and early church incipiency that was to not be perpetuated in all cultures and all times. This is a hermeneutical issue.


There are significant issues to put Gentiles under the yoke of Judaism or to think that God wants us to perpetuate Jewish-Christian syncretism. This is categorically unbiblical, non-Pauline. You have freedom to do these things, but don't claim them to be normative, biblical, superior, necessary.

Jesus was a Jew, not a post-cross Christian, so don't confuse the issues and think that North American evangelicals should wear sandals and be observant in a Jewish or Jewish Christian sense. The gospel negates the need for all of this.

 

[glorydaz]

Technically they are able to commit any sin, even those that are crimes, and retain their salvation; for it is not theirs to forfeit.

But if one is in Christ they are in the Spirit and not the flesh [wherein sin dwells], so as long as they focus on the Spirit and not the flesh why would they ever want to commit any of those things you listed?


How is that hypocritical?

There you go. Well said. :thumb:

I wonder why it is that those who think someone can lose his salvation doesn't understand what living in the Spirit actually means. There isn't a believer alive who wants to sin...we've been freed from the power it had over us. When we fail, we are duly chastened as sons. "That form of doctrine" is speaking of the Gospel and believing unto salvation .

Romans 6:17-18
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.