toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
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It's hard to figure out why so many on this thread (who call themselves
Christians) believe; 1) They can lose their Salvation, through the act of
sin. 2) They believe they're entirely sinless and perfect. These two beliefs,
are false. Both are unacceptable and cannot be proven by Scripture unless
it is being misinterpreted.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Saying that one can lose their salvation is like saying Christ can be un-crucified.

No it is not. This is illogical, a non sequitur. Obviously, a dead/risen historical event cannot be reversed since it is the fixed past.

You have wrong assumptions leading to wrong conclusions (beg the question/circular reasoning not well thought out).

Using your logic, because someone died and cannot be undead, then divorce is impossible?! Huh?

The once for all sacrifice of Christ is a finished work, but it must be subjectively appropriated (we agree). Perseverance of the saints, sanctification, etc. is not unilateral, automatic, since two parties are involved (same with justification).

Salvation is relational, not physical/metaphysical. Reality can change over time. It is possible to be an atheist one year and a theist the next year. It is not impossible to be a theist and become an atheist. One can change their mind, will, relationships, commitments, reality (or are we deterministic robots?).

Scripture warns about apostasy/falling away. Even most MAD types do not say everyone is OSAS (not OT saints, not circ saints, just Pauline ones). So, you must recognize the principles and possibilities I am trying to share, but your hyper-disp is the way you rationalize them away to retain OSAS.

What is the advantage of OSAS when we have biblical assurance from the Holy Spirit? You are simply giving false assurance to Christ-haters (or are forced into the illogical loop hole of saying they must never have been saved to explain apparent apostasy).

Change your view, not the Bible.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
No it is not. This is illogical, a non sequitur. Obviously, a dead/risen historical event cannot be reversed since it is the fixed past.

You have wrong assumptions leading to wrong conclusions (beg the question/circular reasoning not well thought out).

Using your logic, because someone died and cannot be undead, then divorce is impossible?! Huh?

The once for all sacrifice of Christ is a finished work, but it must be subjectively appropriated (we agree). Perseverance of the saints, sanctification, etc. is not unilateral, automatic, since two parties are involved (same with justification).

Salvation is relational, not physical/metaphysical. Reality can change over time. It is possible to be an atheist one year and a theist the next year. It is not impossible to be a theist and become an atheist. One can change their mind, will, relationships, commitments, reality (or are we deterministic robots?).

Scripture warns about apostasy/falling away. Even most MAD types do not say everyone is OSAS (not OT saints, not circ saints, just Pauline ones). So, you must recognize the principles and possibilities I am trying to share, but your hyper-disp is the way you rationalize them away to retain OSAS.

What is the advantage of OSAS when we have biblical assurance from the Holy Spirit? You are simply giving false assurance to Christ-haters (or are forced into the illogical loop hole of saying they must never have been saved to explain apparent apostasy).

Change your view, not the Bible.

You gave Lighthouse the wrong advice. You should have
just told him to ignore you. That's the better advice.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Christs shed blood and resurrection assures us, that if we
place our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior and are cleansed
of our sins, sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and placed
into the Body of Christ, by the same Holy Spirit, we have
assurance of our salvation, and eternal destination! It's
Christ in us, and us in Christ that counts!
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
No it is not. This is illogical, a non sequitur. Obviously, a dead/risen historical event cannot be reversed since it is the fixed past.
A past event cannot be erased you say?:think:

You have wrong assumptions leading to wrong conclusions (beg the question/circular reasoning not well thought out).

Using your logic, because someone died and cannot be undead, then divorce is impossible?! Huh?
If I get married and my wife later dies I cannot then divorce her, can I?

You have just proven yourself an idiot.

What is the advantage of OSAS when we have biblical assurance from the Holy Spirit? You are simply giving false assurance to Christ-haters (or are forced into the illogical loop hole of saying they must never have been saved to explain apparent apostasy).
How is that illogical? Christ, Himself, stated there are those who will call themselves His sheep who never were; those He never knew.

Change your view, not the Bible.
You need to change your view to what the Bible actually says, like I did.
 

IMJerusha

New member
Yes, you can find anything on the web, but what does the Word tell us? Surely all those who sit in the pews are saved. Right?

I didn't pull it off the web but out of my GNT and I have other translator's commentaries that state the same thing. I don't know who in the pews are saved and who aren't because I can not see into the hearts of men...and neither can you. Neither could Paul or any of the disciples.

We know they were Jews, and we also know many Jews did not enter into the promised land because of unbelief. Lack of faith. Right off we see there were those in the congregation who were exhorted not to "neglect so great (a) salvation."

A Jewish believer is still a believer. Hebrews was not written to unbelievers.

Heb. 2:3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

They are reminded of what happened before...not entering in because of unbelief. Why are they reminded of that?

Heb. 3:18-19
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Ah, to fear coming short and not entering in...not being mixed with FAITH in them that heard the gospel preached. Why are they being reminded of that?

Heb. 4:1-2
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

A reminder to rest from those very works they had been relying on up to this time. Simply...some were still counting on their works to save them.

Heb. 4:10-11
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

A call to come boldly before the throne of grace...that we may OBTAIN MERCY AND FIND GRACE. Obtain and find....something yet needed to be done.

Heb. 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Recognizing many were "dull of hearing."

Heb. 5:11-12
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

I could go on through the entire letter to the Hebrews, but one needs a certain amount of discernment to see the congregation included those who had been saved by grace through FAITH, and those who had not yet entered into that rest (salvation).

You really should have gone through the entire letter because you must have missed in Chapters 12 and 13 where the writer, presumably Paul, identifies the recipients as fellow believers. I'm amazed, with your level of “discernment”, that you missed that. "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." And he goes on to encourage them to endure their opposition for "we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our 'God is a consuming fire.' " It is a letter of exhortation, love and encouragement to fellow believers. "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." And so, not only do myriad Bible commentaries identify the recipients of this letter as Hebrew Christians but also the letter itself accomplishes this.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
False teachers also preach that, only an elect portion of mankind were chosen before the foundation of the world, to be saved, the others, face eternal damnation!
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
No, Judas was never saved, you can study all the verb tenses you want to but it will not change Judas into a believer. He was chosen to eat with them, but He never believed unto salvation. :nono:

John 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

You are wasting your breath. We have been going round and round with him and losing salvation. Including Judas with what you are pointing out. It goes even further. Judas was chosen because he was a devil. Rulz doesn't care, he wants to pull people from the faith.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
I didn't pull it off the web but out of my GNT and I have other translator's commentaries that state the same thing. I don't know who in the pews are saved and who aren't because I can not see into the hearts of men...and neither can you. Neither could Paul or any of the disciples.



A Jewish believer is still a believer. Hebrews was not written to unbelievers.



You really should have gone through the entire letter because you must have missed in Chapters 12 and 13 where the writer, presumably Paul, identifies the recipients as fellow believers. I'm amazed, with your level of “discernment”, that you missed that. "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." And he goes on to encourage them to endure their opposition for "we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our 'God is a consuming fire.' " It is a letter of exhortation, love and encouragement to fellow believers. "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." And so, not only do myriad Bible commentaries identify the recipients of this letter as Hebrew Christians but also the letter itself accomplishes this.

We still must recognize that Hebrews and, James as well were pertaining to the Jewish believers!
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
You are wasting your breath. We have been going round and round with him and losing salvation. Including Judas with what you are pointing out. It goes even further. Judas was chosen because he was a devil. Rulz doesn't care, he wants to pull people from the faith.

Good post
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Man! You like to hide the truth under a lot of imaginative mumbo jumbo don't you?

:up:

godrulz said:
:blabla::blabla::blabla::blabla:

I don't think that you comprehend that all your fancy words obfuscate the truth.

2 Cor 3
12: Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:


Rulz is the used car salesman of TOL. You get so lost trying to decipher his rhetoric (by his design), that you forget what the topic was in the first place. It's part of his smoke & mirrors act to portray himself as knowledgeable and authoritative without actually defending what he believes. But, there are many here who see through his con game.
 

IMJerusha

New member
False teachers also preach that, only an elect portion of mankind were chosen before the foundation of the world, to be saved, the others, face eternal damnation!

That would be an OSAS doctrinal addendum. The two always seem to run hand in hand. God foreknew our choices. He didn't make them for us. He gave us free will to choose Him or walk away.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I take it, you've gone around personnally and, polled most evangelicals, huh?


Yes he has.

99% of evangelical believers would not have a problem with these defensible principles,

The vast majority of godly Christians have not heard of MAD. The best of conservative, biblical, evangelical scholarship rejects it if they have heard of it.

You confuse MAD with the Gospel. You have created a sect/cult around a specious view.

The vast majority of believers reject MAD or have never heard of it.

I am a servant of Christ who along with other giants in church history (Arminius, Wesley, etc.) see that Calvin, Augustine, Luther, etc. were not right about everything (nor wrong about everything). Whitefield and Edwards may have been wrong and John Wesley right.

The majority of believers are probably not

The vast majority of Spirit-led believers for 2000 years reject this recent.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
It's hard to figure out why so many on this thread (who call themselves
Christians) believe; 1) They can lose their Salvation, through the act of
sin. 2) They believe they're entirely sinless and perfect. These two beliefs,
are false. Both are unacceptable and cannot be proven by Scripture unless
it is being misinterpreted.

Most do not say an act of sin causes loss of salvation. This is as extreme as OSAS. The fact is that unbelief is the antithesis of the condition of saving faith, so it is a unique sin. Whether one is always in a state of rejection of Christ or reverts to that state after a time of genuine conversion leads to the same godless state.

I agree that sinless perfection is not a biblical view during our lives on earth. Paul did not believe it, so I don't either.
 
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