toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[Doormat]

Are you really so, self deluded to think you don't have ANY sin in your life?

Are you really so self deluded to think that 1 John 5:18 is not true?

Are you really so self deluded to think that 1 John 3:6-9 is not true?

Are you really so self deluded to think that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not true?

Are you really so self deluded to think that Galatians 5:19-21 is not true?

Are you really so self deluded to think that Romans 11:16-24 is not true?

Are you really so self deluded to think that 1 Peter 4:1 is not true?

Are you really so self deluded to think that Ezekiel 18:24 is not true?

Are you really so self deluded to think that John 8:34 is not true?

I'm just scratching the surface.

 

[Doormat]

I'm not a Calvinist, but I am not so blind ...

You are blind enough.

 

[Doormat]

If true believers cannot sin ...

Those born of God cannot sin. See 1 John 3:6-9.

You are delusional, too.

 

[glorydaz]

This is actually a tricky verse in translations and Greek.

It also does not negate the apostasy warnings in the same book (Heb. 3; 6; 10, etc.).

Those "warnings" in Hebrews were made to the Jews who were God's chosen people. They were made to those who were in danger of rejecting Jesus' finished work on the cross. Those who looked back to the law for their salvation. They will never enter in until they cease from their own efforts....which is true for us as well. As long as we claim we are required to do anything except rest in the Lord, we have not yet entered into the rest of salvation.

 

[Doormat]

Those "warnings" in Hebrews were made to the Jews who were God's chosen people.

You have claimed that all sin is wilful. I can link to your quote if you want.

Explain why Hebrews 10:26-29 doesn't apply to you.

 

[godrulz]

Those born of God cannot sin. See 1 John 3:6-9.

You are delusional, too.

Your interpretation contradicts the Greek grammar (present, continuous tense), context, theology in the same book and elsewhere in the NT explicitly.

Will not is not cannot...Christians do not continue to sin like the godless do, but that does not mean isolated lapses are impossible. You are saying we are Jesus or mere robots. Your view contradicts dozens of other verses, other translations of the same verse, Greek grammar, interpretative principles.

Sinless perfectionism is a wrong view based on proof texting, not exegesis.

:box::hammer:

 

[IMJerusha]

That denies everything that is written about Judas...what a message of hope and encouragement you folk preach...come to Jesus...you might end up like Judas

It denies nothing.
I'll ask you the same question. What purpose would Yeshua have in asking God to protect us from the evil one. Why would Yeshua teach us to pray the same prayer?..." 'And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.' " Why would Yeshua say, "'For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.' "
You want some cushy cozy feel good faith, not the reality and the Truth. Being a believer does not mean that we no longer sin or that it is impossible to be tempted away from Yeshua. No one can take us from Him but we can choose evil over Him.

 

[godrulz]

You have claimed that all sin is wilful. I can link to your quote if you want.

Explain why Hebrews 10:26-29 doesn't apply to you.

The context is not talking about fleshly things like Paul does in Cor., Gal, Eph. etc. It is talking about a unique sin of unbelief/apostasy that does sever the relationship, unlike fleshly sins that do not involve denying the person and work of Christ.

Context is king, so quit proof texting to retain your error (change your view, not the Bible).

Heb. 6:4-6 is not about unbelievers, but those who believe and become apostates/fall away/become unbelievers after believing for a time.

 

[godrulz]

Those "warnings" in Hebrews were made to the Jews who were God's chosen people. They were made to those who were in danger of rejecting Jesus' finished work on the cross. Those who looked back to the law for their salvation. They will never enter in until they cease from their own efforts....which is true for us as well. As long as we claim we are required to do anything except rest in the Lord, we have not yet entered into the rest of salvation.

The phrases used before Heb. 6:4-6 can only apply to believers, not unbelievers. The historical context is Jewish CHRISTIANS who were falling away due to persecution, false teaching, lack of discipleship, etc. It is not talking about unconverted Jews.

 

[glorydaz]

It says he BECAME these things, not was so. From the beginning is an idiom pointing to a specific time, not an absolute beginning to the second.

Jesus prayed for wisdom in who to choose. There is risk in God's project unless He is omnicausal (He is not). There is no wisdom in choosing a devil after a night of prayer and calling him an apostle (does not say he was a devil at that point).

Sorry, godrulz, but it was absolutely necessary that Judas be chosen...not for salvation, but as a false friend allowed in their midst. Judas was chosen so that scripture would be fulfilled. It just didn't happen by accident.

John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

 

[Doormat]

Your interpretation contradicts the Greek grammar (present, continuous tense), context, theology in the same book and elsewhere in the NT explicitly.

We've been through this before. You don't know what you are talking about. The Greek confirms my interpretation.

Christians do not continue to sin like the godless do, but that does not mean isolated lapses are impossible.

Those are the ravings of a delusional person.

How many times do you get to commit adultery before it's considered habitual, continual sin? How many commandments do you believe you have to keep? Post the list so we can see just how delusional you are.

 

[IMJerusha]

None of the disciples were saved when they first began to follow Jesus, and many of those who followed turned away without being saved.

You're either adding to Scripture now or changing the discussion to include all believers as opposed to the 12 in regard to Judas.

 

[glorydaz]

The phrases used before Heb. 6:4-6 can only apply to believers, not unbelievers. The historical context is Jewish CHRISTIANS who were falling away due to persecution, false teaching, lack of discipleship, etc. It is not talking about unconverted Jews.

As Jews, they had eaten the manna and drank from the rock, and experienced the grace of God. That is not salvation (unless that grace is accessed by faith.) Those Jews were not yet ready to move past the elementals as the first few verses of that chapter make clear.

The believers among that congregation were those referred to as having "things that accompany salvation."

Heb. 6:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

 

[glorydaz]

You're either adding to Scripture now or changing the discussion to include all believers as opposed to the 12 in regard to Judas.

Uh, Judas is the side issue, and I'm not the one who brought him up. Perhaps you should think before you speak.

 

[Doormat]

Have you even thought about the idea that, Christ
was telling that person, not to continue, in THAT
particular sin? Just a warning from Christ to stop
committing that, personally chosen sin?

Yep. And after much chastening, that particular act will no longer be a problem, but, rest assured, another area will be brought into the light.

How many commandments are you trying to keep? How many commandments do Christians have to keep? List them. It must be a very long list, else what you've said cannot be true.

 

[IMJerusha]

He was called an apostle. He was not fatalistically chosen to be a devil, but became one.

If you are Calvinist/determinist, I cannot help you nor agree with your error.

Calvinists are one thing. Baptists are something else, Brother.

 

[godrulz]

Sorry, godrulz, but it was absolutely necessary that Judas be chosen...not for salvation, but as a false friend allowed in their midst. Judas was chosen so that scripture would be fulfilled. It just didn't happen by accident.

John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

You need to study all the uses of fulfilled. Judas was not predestined from eternity past and could have repented vs betrayed (he is not a fatalistic puppet, nor was Pharaoh). Fulfilled in this sense is not predictive, deterministic, but illustrative (other verses out of context are also not Messianic, but they parallel a situation in Christ's life, so are applied illustratively or parallel as 'fulfillment').

I am not making this stuff up, but it does require research (God who Risks by John Sanders looks at these e.g. to develop a proper hermeneutic).

 

[godrulz]

Calvinists are one thing. Baptists are something else, Brother.

Southern Baptists are debating and divided over Calvinism, big time. Not all Baptists are Calvinistic, and some are, but don't live in line with their theory (Spurgeon, etc.).

 

[IMJerusha]

Uh, Judas is the side issue, and I'm not the one who brought him up. Perhaps you should think before you speak.

It's unimportant who brought him up, you threw into a discussion that focused on Judas as example. http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3451192&postcount=86

I thought and read and read and thought and posted.

 

[godrulz]

We've been through this before. You don't know what you are talking about. The Greek confirms my interpretation.



Those are the ravings of a delusional person.

How many times do you get to commit adultery before it's considered habitual, continual sin? How many commandments do you believe you have to keep? Post the list so we can see just how delusional you are.

Unbelief is a unique sin because it is the antithesis of saving faith, unlike lying or lust (unbelief relates to a condition of salvation, while flesh sin relates to sanctification, not justification/glorification). Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36 vs I Cor. 5; I Thess. 4; Gal. 5; etc.