toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they chan

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I affirm justification/grace/faith truths. If POTS/OSAS is a condition of salvation, you will have to prove this since most Christians do not make it so because the Bible does not make it so. Calvinists are OSAS. You don't even think they are saved. Most of the rest of the Body of Christ rejects OSAS, but not justification in Christ. So, if I am going to hell, then only you, Calvinists, and some TOL inconsistent Open Theists will be in heaven. Virtually all evangelicals will be in hell. You are a retard.

You assume too much about, who trusts in OSAS, and who does not!

 

[godrulz]

Once one is, truly saved and in the body of Christ and the Holy
Spirit is within them (indwelled) they are sealed and cannot lose
their forgiveness, mercy, and eternal life that, God has bestowed
upon them, through the shed blood and resurrection of His Son!

Christ is, in them, and they are, in Christ, there's no turning back,
nor would any true believer desire to go back!

No true person in love and married would ever change their mind and commit adultery and fall for someone else? OSAS logic is that they must never have been in love or married because reality changed over time.

Israel, Church, Church Age, Scripture does not support OSAS. It is a false teaching giving false assurance, not biblical security/assurance.

 

[IMJerusha]

People always read hellfire...what IS up with christians? why does "lest a worst thing come upon you" have to mean hell?

Probably because God and Yeshua and Ruach HaKodesh do not and will not reside with sin. Why do people think that sin is part of God's Kingdom?

 

[godrulz]

Wheat will always be wheat, tares will always be tares. Even when wheat spoils it still is wheat and useful for manure.

So, you are saying some are born Christians and others are born non-Christians and that there is no conversion, salvation, moving from unbelief to faith, atheism to theism, Islam to Christianity?

If one can go in one direction and love and free will are genuine, then people can go in the other direction. Like it or not, there are some born again people who are now atheists, Muslims, Satanists, etc.

Unless you are prepared to endorse oxymoronic Christian atheism, Christian Satanism, Christlam, etc., then you should reject OSAS. The security of the believer, salvation by grace, perseverance, etc. has a conditional vs unconditional element because two parties are involved and God does not coerce/cause moral/salvific issues. If He did, all would be saved and stay saved (universalism/OSAS vs two destinies/apostasy).

 

[godrulz]

I said freewill is an illusion, bondage is what it really is...did you have freewill before you came to Christ? did you not sin because you were BOUND to sin? how then were you free?...you had a will but it was bound...that's what got you into trouble right?

Total depravity (Augustine/Luther vs Bible) is not total inability. Without free will there is no love, relationship, moral responsibility.

 

[glorydaz]

Judas was saved. Jesus did not call a devil to his inner circle, call him an apostle alongside other apostles, chose him in wisdom after praying to the Father, etc. He BECAME a betrayer and later a son of perdition, but he was not always so (read the chronology and verb tenses). He is an e.g. of apostasy, while Peter is an e.g. of someone who was restored rather than dying in unbelief like Judas.

Church history is littered with genuine Christians who fell away, just as Scripture warns about. These warnings would not be there if it was impossible to forsake Him.

It is simply begging the question to say that someone who falls away was never saved (some vs all). The argument is like saying someone who divorces was never married. Grow a brain.

No, Judas was never saved, you can study all the verb tenses you want to but it will not change Judas into a believer. He was chosen to eat with them, but He never believed unto salvation. :nono:

John 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No true person in love and married would ever change their mind and commit adultery and fall for someone else? OSAS logic is that they must never have been in love or married because reality changed over time.

Israel, Church, Church Age, Scripture does not support OSAS. It is a false teaching giving false assurance, not biblical security/assurance.

Scripture supports OSAS! However, Scripture cannot support
your weighty false teachings!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No, Judas was never saved, you can study all the verb tenses you want to but it will not change Judas into a believer. He was chosen to eat with them, but He never believed unto salvation. :nono:

John 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

True

 

[glorydaz]

So, you are saying some are born Christians and others are born non-Christians and that there is no conversion, salvation, moving from unbelief to faith, atheism to theism, Islam to Christianity?

If one can go in one direction and love and free will are genuine, then people can go in the other direction. Like it or not, there are some born again people who are now atheists, Muslims, Satanists, etc.

Unless you are prepared to endorse oxymoronic Christian atheism, Christian Satanism, Christlam, etc., then you should reject OSAS. The security of the believer, salvation by grace, perseverance, etc. has a conditional vs unconditional element because two parties are involved and God does not coerce/cause moral/salvific issues. If He did, all would be saved and stay saved (universalism/OSAS vs two destinies/apostasy).

You reckon without the POWER of God to finish the work He began in us. You also reckon without the fact that born again believers are a new creation who have a heart purified by FAITH. And, you seem to deny the Promises which prove what you say is impossible.

 

[Tehmill]

Judas was saved. Jesus did not call a devil to his inner circle, call him an apostle alongside other apostles, chose him in wisdom after praying to the Father, etc. He BECAME a betrayer and later a son of perdition, but he was not always so (read the chronology and verb tenses). He is an e.g. of apostasy, while Peter is an e.g. of someone who was restored rather than dying in unbelief like Judas.

Church history is littered with genuine Christians who fell away, just as Scripture warns about. These warnings would not be there if it was impossible to forsake Him.


It is simply begging the question to say that someone who falls away was never saved (some vs all). The argument is like saying someone who divorces was never married. Grow a brain.

*
Jesus said "have I not chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil?" that is a direct contradiction to you. He knew from the beginning who it was who disbelieved and who it was who would betray Him.

If Acts is what the church ought to be my dear we are ALL fallen away but we are not damned.

Now think [Mr Brain] is any earthly shadow of heavenly things such as marriage a perfect type of the real? The bible explicitly says that God's will concerning divorce is NO NO from the beginning [which is God's will] they became one flesh...as Paul says we have become flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone...we are made one spirit with the Lord.

 

[godrulz]

No, Judas was never saved, you can study all the verb tenses you want to but it will not change Judas into a believer. He was chosen to eat with them, but He never believed unto salvation. :nono:

John 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

'from the beginning' is an idiom that does not literally mean from the absolute beginning. Other verses show that he was called an apostle, chosen for Christ's inner circle, but near the beginning BECAME a betrayer and then later a son of perdition full of Satan (was not in the absolute beginning to creation, birth, calling for ministry).

 

[godrulz]

Scripture supports OSAS! However, Scripture cannot support
your weighty false teachings!

Most evangelicals (apart from Calvinists) beg to differ based on Scripture. We differ on interpretation, but to say there is no support is false and displays ignorance of the debate.

 

[godrulz]

You reckon without the POWER of God to finish the work He began in us. You also reckon without the fact that born again believers are a new creation who have a heart purified by FAITH. And, you seem to deny the Promises which prove what you say is impossible.

Using your logic, it is a denial of God's power if we deny universalism. If He can unconditionally keep someone, then He should be able to unconditionally save EVERYONE. If you are deterministic, TULIP Calvinist, I cannot help you. Your whole paradigm is wrong, though consistent (I would say POTS/OSAS is possible under Calvinism, but not under free will, relational theisms, the biblical paradigm).

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

'from the beginning' is an idiom that does not literally mean from the absolute beginning. Other verses show that he was called an apostle, chosen for Christ's inner circle, but near the beginning BECAME a betrayer and then later a son of perdition full of Satan (was not in the absolute beginning to creation, birth, calling for ministry).

Man! You like to hide the truth under a lot of imaginative mumbo jumbo don't you?

 

[godrulz]

*
Jesus said "have I not chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil?" that is a direct contradiction to you. He knew from the beginning who it was who disbelieved and who it was who would betray Him.

If Acts is what the church ought to be my dear we are ALL fallen away but we are not damned.

Now think [Mr Brain] is any earthly shadow of heavenly things such as marriage a perfect type of the real? The bible explicitly says that God's will concerning divorce is NO NO from the beginning [which is God's will] they became one flesh...as Paul says we have become flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone...we are made one spirit with the Lord.

Unbelief is a unique sin. The church in Acts and NT was far from perfect. This is a sanctification issue, not an apostasy/perseverance issue (dealt with in Hebrews, etc. where Jewish Christians were reverting back to Judaism and forfeiting their hope in Christ).

Jesus made the statement in present tense. It was true when He later made this statement that Judas was a betrayer. You are wrong, based on the context and grammar, to say he was chosen in this state or always in this state. You are proof texting to retain a wrong view, not exegeting in context.

Change your view, not the Bible.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Most evangelicals (apart from Calvinists) beg to differ based on Scripture. We differ on interpretation, but to say there is no support is false and displays ignorance of the debate.

I take it, you've gone around personnally and, polled most evangelicals, huh?

 

[godrulz]

Man! You like to hide the truth under a lot of imaginative mumbo jumbo don't you?

Look at all uses of 'from the beginning' in Scripture and your wooden literalism cannot be justified.

It is the same as failing to see the idiom (from mother's womb/Hebraism) in Ps. 51 and making a big doctrine of Augustinian original sin by failing to interpret properly.

The problem is your lack of interpretation, not my mumbo jumbo.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Using your logic, it is a denial of God's power if we deny universalism. If He can unconditionally keep someone, then He should be able to unconditionally save EVERYONE. If you are deterministic, TULIP Calvinist, I cannot help you. Your whole paradigm is wrong, though consistent (I would say POTS/OSAS is possible under Calvinism, but not under free will, relational theisms, the biblical paradigm).

You have a way with words, however, your words have, no way of resembling the, truth of Scripture!

 

[godrulz]

I take it, you've gone around personnally and, polled most evangelicals, huh?

It is a fact that Calvinism-like and Arminian-like views are polarized. I suspect most of the Church is not Calvinistic, though much of it is. Arminians/free will theists virtually all reject OSAS, while Calvinists/TULIP affirms POTS/OSAS-like.

Do you dispute that the majority of Christians are not Calvinists? The few free will theists who accept OSAS are a distinct minority and inconsistent with their views.

Regardless, majority/minority does not prove anything, so my case is based on cumulative biblical evidence.

MAD on TOL also sees that some were not OSAS (circ vs uncirc), so they get around it by saying the non-OSAS verses in Hebrews, etc. don't apply to Pauline believers. This is a loop hole, but bad theology. The other forced loop hole is to say that those who professed Christ, but no longer do so, were never saved. This is begging the question, illogical, and not being honest with the biblical text.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Look at all uses of 'from the beginning' in Scripture and your wooden literalism cannot be justified.

It is the same as failing to see the idiom (from mother's womb/Hebraism) in Ps. 51 and making a big doctrine of Augustinian original sin by failing to interpret properly.

The problem is your lack of interpretation, not my mumbo jumbo.

Your assessment of me is, faulty because, you have a lack of discernment, regarding the truth of Scripture! Therein, lies the
problem!