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  • #46
    Originally posted by Lon View Post
    What if someone rejects their spouse but the other person, who is in authoritarian charge of the court system, refuses to divorce?

    Similar? No?
    Salvation is not deterministic. Just as a marriage relationship can be broken in real life (authoritarian courts are not akin to God's moral government based on love/free will), so can salvation. To say a person was never married because they divorce is a lame argument akin to OSAS arguments.

    Apostasy is an extreme issue, not akin to a fight in a marriage that does not end the relationship (fleshly sins, etc.).
    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by godrulz View Post
      Salvation is not deterministic. Just as a marriage relationship can be broken in real life (authoritarian courts are not akin to God's moral government based on love/free will), so can salvation. To say a person was never married because they divorce is a lame argument akin to OSAS arguments.

      Apostasy is an extreme issue, not akin to a fight in a marriage that does not end the relationship (fleshly sins, etc.).
      What scripture says you can walk away?
      He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

      Jim Elliot

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
        What scripture says you can walk away?
        What Scripture says you cannot? There are verses that are stern warnings about the possibility of falling away in addition to ones about the security of the believer with conditional aspects. The only way to embrace all relevant verses is conditional vs unconditional eternal security.

        Given free will, the concept is self-evident.
        Last edited by godrulz; May 12th, 2013, 02:54 PM.
        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by godrulz View Post
          What Scripture says you cannot? There are verses that are stern warnings about the possibility of falling away in addition to ones about the security of the believer with conditional aspects. The only way to embrace all relevant verses is conditional vs unconditional eternal security.

          Given free will, the concept is self-evident.
          John 10:28-29

          King James Version (KJV)

          28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

          29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
          He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

          Jim Elliot

          Comment


          • #50
            No, when a person is regenerate, they become a new creature in Christ. And God Who began the good work (of justification, sanctification and glorification) will complete that work at the day of Christ.

            Granted, those who argue for eternal security from an Arminian or an Open Theist position will have to argue from the other side of their mouth on this.
            αξιον εστιν το αρνιον
            Worthy is the Lamb

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              John 10:28-29

              King James Version (KJV)

              28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

              29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
              Romans 8 also says that nothing can separate us from His love. Demons, men, persecution, etc. cannot remove a man from relationship with God, but a person's mind and will in rejection of truth and light can. The Calvinistic proof texts also have a conditional element in the broader context (such as present tense of believing and continuing to believe; hearing and continuing to hear/follow Him).

              You cannot use this verse to create a contradiction with the apostasy/falling away verses. The way to retain both motifs is to have the right view: conditional vs unconditional security.

              A verse about believers (those who believe and continue to believe vs cease to believe and become unbelievers) is true. We have security as believers, but this does not prove that a believer cannot become an unbeliever (and thus not have life/security...the reality has changed).
              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Knight View Post
                The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for May 10th, 2013 05:00 AM


                toldailytopic: Once a person is saved can they reject that salvation should they change their mind about wanting to be with God in heaven?



                No, once you submit to the operation of God, you are bought and paid for...... His work on you has begun.

                Colossians 2:11-13
                In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


                Those who are sons of God will never be forsaken, neither can they hide from His LONG ARM. I'd advise they surrender quickly to any chastening along the way. It would save them a world of grief.

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                • #53
                  No. Grace is a gift that once accepted transfers ownership. You are no longer your own.
                  You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

                  Pro-Life






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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by jimfoxy View Post
                    Seems to me to be impossible to lose salvation. I know the standard arguments pro and con, but that is where I come out. I think the weight of scripture supports the view of eternal security.
                    I concur.
                    Welcome to TOL.

                    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                    They already know monsters exist.
                    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Not one person is going to get to heaven and say "I changed my mind, I want to go to hell and be gone from him" instead.
                      Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                      Titus 1

                      For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                      Ephesians 5

                      11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                        No, once you submit to the operation of God, you are bought and paid for...... His work on you has begun.
                        Different thread, but you are still wrong. Salvation is about making dead people alive. As you just quoted, therefore defeating your own statement. If salvation was about turning over a new leaf, then he died for nothing.

                        Romans 7

                        18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.


                        Therefore

                        Romans 8:10

                        10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


                        2 Corinthians 5:16

                        16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
                        Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                        Titus 1

                        For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                        Ephesians 5

                        11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                          What Scripture says you cannot?
                          As if you have not been shown right here, thousands, literally thousands of times. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. You are going to hell.
                          Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

                          Titus 1

                          For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

                          Ephesians 5

                          11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Town Heretic View Post
                            No. Grace is a gift that once accepted transfers ownership. You are no longer your own.
                            *
                            Further we belonged to Him in the first place.
                            To progress we have to go back...to the bible.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                              Salvation is not deterministic.
                              You mean Paul was wrong to say "who He foreknew He also predestined..." strange that you should change a bible word and substitute an equivilent, why would you do that?
                              Just as a marriage relationship can be broken in real life (authoritarian courts are not akin to God's moral government based on love/free will), so can salvation. To say a person was never married because they divorce is a lame argument akin to OSAS arguments.
                              Bible marriages were arranged, Moses recognised divorce God did not, even so God asks "where is My bill of divorce?" there is none...can you find them? we have His espousals
                              Apostasy is an extreme issue, not akin to a fight in a marriage that does not end the relationship (fleshly sins, etc.).
                              Judas is that rare...are there any others in the NT? Judas was never saved.
                              To progress we have to go back...to the bible.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Once one is, truly saved and in the body of Christ and the Holy
                                Spirit is within them (indwelled) they are sealed and cannot lose
                                their forgiveness, mercy, and eternal life that, God has bestowed
                                upon them, through the shed blood and resurrection of His Son!

                                Christ is, in them, and they are, in Christ, there's no turning back,
                                nor would any true believer desire to go back!

                                Comment

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