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toldailytopic: What is Open Theism? What do you think of it?

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  • Totton Linnet
    replied
    Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    I choose to be so

    I choose to be ignorant of some posters too... I choose what to fill my mind with, and I choose not to fill it with open view theology.

    Some people could be persuaded that God is a apple pie.

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  • Lighthouse
    replied
    Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    I choose to be so
    Obviously

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  • Letsargue
    replied
    Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    I choose to be so

    Then may the devil bless you his way!!!

    Paul -- 041913

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  • Totton Linnet
    replied
    I choose to be so

    I choose to be ignorant of some posters too... I choose what to fill my mind with, and I choose not to fill it with open view theology.

    Some people could be persuaded that God is a apple pie.
    Last edited by Totton Linnet; April 24th, 2013, 06:43 PM.

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  • Lighthouse
    replied
    Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Since God is not all knowing [as they suppose] it is quite possible that He is not the only God as He says, maybe there is a greater one who yet hides Himself, perhaps He will null and void all the promises of scripture..


    It is not the position of the open view that God is ignorant of such things.

    It is, however, my firm position that you are completely ignorant of a great many things.

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  • Totton Linnet
    replied
    If there is a greater than God who yet keeps Himself hidden from Jahweh...this would be unknowable by God...even Jahweh hides Himself, to me it is one of His more remarkable miracles.

    My dear William you yourself seem engaged here with "unknowables" I am merely tickling your ears further.

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  • godrulz
    replied
    Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
    Since God is not all knowing [as they suppose] it is quite possible that He is not the only God as He says, maybe there is a greater one who yet hides Himself, perhaps He will null and void all the promises of scripture..
    Seriously? Why reject a view you do not understand or cannot explain?

    God is all-knowing not ignorant of anything knowable (some things are inherently unknowable). He knows the past and present exhaustively. He is clear in Isaiah that there are no other gods before or after Him. He knows none. You are implying he is ignorant of past or present reality. This is NOT what Open Theism teaches. He is also intelligent and sovereign and knows that no other gods would form since He alone is Creator and eternal. If there was another eternal God, He would have always known this. Your objection is lame.

    God is also faithful to His Word. This is character, not crystal ball. You underestimate His great intelligence and knowledge and power. Foreknowledge also offers no providential advantage because God could not change the fixed future even if He wanted to (would make His FK false).

    You are giving a knee-jerk reaction, not one that involves basic critical thinking and understanding of opposing views. You are also blind to the problems with your own view.

    Yours is not an Open Theism objection (there are better ones) because it makes no sense and is a total straw man argument. Get familiar with the literature (for and against Open Theism) before you take pot shots (if you want credibility to speak).

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  • Totton Linnet
    replied
    Since God is not all knowing [as they suppose] it is quite possible that He is not the only God as He says, maybe there is a greater one who yet hides Himself, perhaps He will null and void all the promises of scripture..

    Leave a comment:


  • godrulz
    replied
    Originally posted by Nick M View Post
    Open Theism is also a way of rulz to show somebody losing salvation because the future is open.
    Most non-Calvinistic Arminians who reject OSAS because of free will views are not Open Theists. Are you sure you can handle an amateur theology site?

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  • Nick M
    replied
    Open Theism is also a way of rulz to show somebody losing salvation because the future is open.

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  • godrulz
    replied
    Open theism denies EDF, so that is a distinctive. It is not the only truth.

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  • Letsargue
    replied
    Originally posted by Nick M View Post
    That is only because you hedge your answers. And you are the worst at not coming out and saying with all your links to other people's thoughts. Here is a two part question for Mr Religion.

    1. Does God desire all men to be saved?

    2. Are all men saved?

    Are you expecting an ( Answer ) from here??

    He has ( NEVER ) answered Me on anything. There is a burning bush to dance around.

    Paul -- 041313

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  • Doormat
    replied
    Originally posted by Doormat
    How does open theism explain God's apparent detailed knowledge of the future?
    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    Predictive.
    If God could observe in detail what we call the future, would that completely undermine open theism?

    Originally posted by Clete View Post
    The better question is how does Calvinism explain the several prophesies in scripture that did not come to pass.
    I'm not a Calvinist so I can't answer that.

    Can you show me the prophesies you're thinking of?

    Leave a comment:


  • Letsargue
    replied
    Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    No.

    Odd that God is capable of speaking the universe into existence and a believer has no problem believing, assenting, trusting this fact.

    Yet, when God teaches clearly that He is sovereign and man is responsible, some believers will gnash their teeth ignoring that the same root of their belief in the former underlies the latter.

    You seem unwilling to apply the same faith (belief, assent, trust) you have in God's creating abilities to the simple fact that He declares He is sovereign in all senses of the word and we are responsible.

    Sadly, it is the fallen nature of man to resist any notion that he is just not as free as he would like to be. Thus you set off creating all manner of beyond the bounds views of God to explain how God pulls it all off, contrary to Deut. 29:29. In no place in the Scriptures do we find God explaining Himself on such matters. Why do you continue to try and peek behind the curtain treading where you are forbidden to do so?

    I am not claiming we should refuse to use our God-given faculties to ponder and meditate upon His being. But we are admonished to confine said ponderings to what He has revealed to us.

    Do you honestly think God is incapable of seeing to it that you are responsible while not having to divest Himself of His divine essence to make it so? Your issue seems to be a refusal to simply accept what has been revealed. Instead you want an answer to all the how's and why's and will not submit yourself to the One whose holiness is of such a distance from ourselves that even a glimpse of such holiness drives the angels about the throne of God to never cease to proclaim it from eternity.

    AMR

    I couldn’t help but respond to such failure to understand the creation and speak of it as you understand it all!!! – Your first sentence tells on you.
    This whole thing again is so simple it impossible for the smarter than God to see it. - Even God knows that no one is going to go through that much garbage, ( 50 pages ) to see something so simple as the Creation!!

    God “SPOKE” the Creation into existence?? – That is God’s simple way of showing how He did it for even the simple minded.

    This is how God does most everything. --- God simply says: ( “LET - ( Let Who ), there be”, and ( He ) takes on the “Form” that He has in His ( “Mind / Thought / Word / Right Hand / Son / Savior / Truth / “LIGHT”. – Because the Creation IS who God IS. - Now the Creation Declares the Glory of God, and the “Firmament” / “Earth” showeth His “( HANDY )” Work!!!
    The Creation is Just that simple, and it doesn’t take 50 pages of stuff not spoken by the Creator / the Creation!!! --- Sorry if I interrupted you all fight.

    Paul – 041313

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  • DFT_Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    No.

    Odd that God is capable of speaking the universe into existence and a believer has no problem believing, assenting, trusting this fact.

    Yet, when God teaches clearly that He is sovereign and man is responsible, some believers will gnash their teeth ignoring that the same root of their belief in the former underlies the latter.

    You seem unwilling to apply the same faith (belief, assent, trust) you have in God's creating abilities to the simple fact that He declares He is sovereign in all senses of the word and we are responsible.

    Sadly, it is the fallen nature of man to resist any notion that he is just not as free as he would like to be. Thus you set off creating all manner of beyond the bounds views of God to explain how God pulls it all off, contrary to Deut. 29:29. In no place in the Scriptures do we find God explaining Himself on such matters. Why do you continue to try and peek behind the curtain treading where you are forbidden to do so?

    I am not claiming we should refuse to use our God-given faculties to ponder and meditate upon His being. But we are admonished to confine said ponderings to what He has revealed to us.

    Do you honestly think God is incapable of seeing to it that you are responsible while not having to divest Himself of His divine essence to make it so? Your issue seems to be a refusal to simply accept what has been revealed. Instead you want an answer to all the how's and why's and will not submit yourself to the One whose holiness is of such a distance from ourselves that even a glimpse of such holiness drives the angels about the throne of God to never cease to proclaim it from eternity.

    AMR
    In the most basic sense I completely agree with you that God is sovereign and man is responsible. I'm sure you are aware that open theism is not a complete rejection of classic theism or Calvinism nor a full acceptance of Arminianism.

    I would not call it a synthesis of both but one could argue it is, and for the sake of making a valid point I would accept the synthesis as a valid proposition. Open theism is against the control of "all things" that your understanding of God's sovereignty implies and the knowing "all future things" that is implied in Arminianism.

    God clearly, in open view, controls "some", but not all things and knows "some", but not all future things. The things he controls he would have certain and actual future knowledge of. If there are things he is not controlling then he would not have certain or actual future knowledge of.

    The problem is the "all-ness" that is embedded in classic view (CV), your view and Arminian. In CV God cannot be "perfect or infinite" unless every attribute of God is unlimited, both fully and timelessly actualized.

    I don't think we need argue if this "all-ness", as I call it, is Natural Theology and not Biblical Revelation, I think we agree that it is Natural theology. That the one is antithical to the other we may, or may not, argue over but the difference between us would be if this "all-ness", the reason for God's full and absolute sovereignty, is Biblical or not.

    The Bible does not portray God as Natural theology does as "pure actuality", or as the "Unmoved Mover", or as "fully timelessly actualized" in "all" of his attributes. If God were immovable, changeless, and timeless in "all" of his attrbutes and in his relationship to the world, to us, then he could not be good, he could not be love.

    So I would ask you how God can be good or love if he "controls everything" as you have said contrasts OV. You are correct to say that God in OV does not control everything but wrong to conclude that in OV he controls nothing. How in CV can a God who controls all things be good? That God would be responsible for all that is evil as well as all that is good if he controlls "all" things. How in CV can God be love if he controls us?

    When you say because of the absolute depravity of man or because we are finite, we cannot comprehend this "all-ness" of God and therefore what only seems like a contradict in our minds is still absolutely and necessarily true you end up with an irrational faith. I say an irrational faith because what ever is a contradiction to the the rational human mind is, humanly speaking, irrational.

    --Dave

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