toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe

Letsargue

New member
For what? Creating beings made of fallible flesh and blood, and a speck of existence in which to find the one way out of a maze which doesn't result in being roasted or some other unspeakable eternal form of suffering?

The mind boggles at the cruelty of such a doctrine...


WOW!! – It boggles the mind!! ---- Did someone forget -- what they did, - or are doing to Jesus Christ / (( "GOD" - WITH THEM )) while He was - with them??? -- One does not do~that to GOD~~GUY~~!! – You’re doing it now. - ( Rejecting God ) / Truth / The WORD, is to (( Slay )) Him ( From YOU ), ~dead for a long time~!!! – Enjoy your happy boggle!!!!

Paul – 040313
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Just out of interest....

How would you read this verse then?

1 Tim 4:10
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Every time the word "Savior" is used in the Bible does not automatically mean it is being used in a soteriological (salvific) sense. The fact that "especially" appears in the verse should signal a clue that another sense of the word is in play.

See:
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]http://www.the-highway.com/1Tim4.10.html[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

The above is one interpretation. The more I study the passage the more I am convinced the phrase "especially...." means "that is, believers". I draw this from the fact the underlying Greek in some cases (2 Tim. 4:13; Tit. 1:10, 11; and in 1 Tim. 4:10) should be understood as providing a further definition or identification of that which precedes it and thus renders it by such words as "that is."

No matter which way you end up, there is no way this verse is teaching universalism.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]AMR[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Since when does a label matter when discussing such a topic?
AB, it matters because those that appropriate a label tend to live up to it. A quick survey of heterodoxies and heresies espoused hither and yon can be found in those who proudly declare themselves "Other". When I encounter views that are beyond the bounds, I can do nothing but sigh in disappointment. Be encouraged, however, for the "Lone Ranger, Just Me and My Bible I dont Need to Submit to Church Authorities" believer runs a close second to "Other" for frequently holding to bizzare views.

AMR
 

bybee

New member
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Every time the word "Savior" is used in the Bible does not automatically mean it is being used in a soteriological (salvific) sense. The fact that "especially" appears in the verse should signal a clue that another sense of the word is in play.

See:
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]http://www.the-highway.com/1Tim4.10.html[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

The above is one interpretation. The more I study the passage the more I am convinced the phrase "especially...." means "that is, believers". I draw this from the fact the underlying Greek in some cases (2 Tim. 4:13; Tit. 1:10, 11; and in 1 Tim. 4:10) should be understood as providing a further definition or identification of that which precedes it and thus renders it by such words as "that is."

No matter which way you end up, there is no way this verse is teaching universalism.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]AMR[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]

Thanks
AMR. I trust your exegesis.
Universalism, as a doctrine, would make the crucifixion and resurrection pointless, or so it seems to me.
On the other hand, I have mused long over MacDonald's assertion that "All who want to be saved shall be saved".
 

Letsargue

New member
That’s still True, (( If the following is True )):>>-- Mark 3:29 KJV ---&--- Jude 1:7 KJV ---&--- Jude 13:12-13 KJV ------//--- Salvation is for ever, not just while some fool DIES the first death, but as long as the eternal Second Death; one is still "BEING Saved" - for ever and for ever!!! AMEN!!!

Paul – 040312
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Thanks
AMR. I trust your exegesis.
Universalism, as a doctrine, would make the crucifixion and resurrection pointless, or so it seems to me.
On the other hand, I have mused long over MacDonald's assertion that "All who want to be saved shall be saved".
Kind words. Thank you.

The lost...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Naturally then, they cannot "want" to be saved. They hate God. They are dead spiritually, not just sick. The "quickening" of the Holy Spirit regenerates some of them that have been called by God from their spiritual death, removing their heart of stone and replacing it with one of flesh that will irrevocably want to be saved. Those so quickened are the elect of God undergoing his irresistable grace. The Holy Spirit is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. See also Ezekiel 11:19-20, John 5:24 - the perfect tense verb properly reads has already passed from death unto life; John 6:37-39,44, Romans 8:8, Romans 8:30, Ephesians 2:1-10, Philippians 2:12-13, Colossians 2:13, James 1:18, Titus 3:5, 1 John 5:1 - another perfect tense verb is used here and properly reads has already been born of God, 1 John 3:7, John 1:12-13 but of God.

In other words those that want to be saved will be saved because their "wanting" and their "salvation" is the work of God. Grace proves irresistible just because it destroys the disposition to resist.

AMR
 

Letsargue

New member
AB, it matters because those that appropriate a label tend to live up to it. A quick survey of heterodoxies and heresies espoused hither and yon can be found in those who proudly declare themselves "Other". When I encounter views that are beyond the bounds, I can do nothing but sigh in disappointment. Be encouraged, however, for the "Lone Ranger, Just Me and My Bible I dont Need to Submit to Church Authorities" believer runs a close second to "Other" for frequently holding to bizzare views.

AMR


"(( Lone Ranger )), Just Me and My Bible I dont Need to Submit to Church Authorities”. – Thanks for the kind words.

Death is eternal; as long as Salvation lasts. -- If Salvation was short so would be the Joy of the Lord!! – Thanks again for the kind words; -- and you did mean “ME “, right? - Shall you tell one here for the Lord?? --- In fact, I klnda like the Title.
T h e LOOOn R a n g e r rrrrr, -- Sounds like, - T r u t h!!

Paul – 040313
 

bybee

New member
"(( Lone Ranger )), Just Me and My Bible I dont Need to Submit to Church Authorities”. – Thanks for the kind words.

Death is eternal; as long as Salvation lasts. -- If Salvation was short so would be the Joy of the Lord!! – Thanks again for the kind words; -- and you did mean “ME “, right? - Shall you tell one here for the Lord?? --- In fact, I klnda like the Title.
T h e LOOOn R a n g e r rrrrr, -- Sounds like, - T r u t h!!

Paul – 040313

Could be, but, could be error also. How would you know, if you alone are judge? How can you learn and expand your mind if you don't engage in discussion with other Godly folks?
Do you believe that you are the "only" Godly person on this forum?
 

Letsargue

New member
Letsargue, let's not. ;)

AMR

~ok. -- If you can, -- Peace!! - But Ignor’ance, or to Ignore, is the deliberate lack of Knowing; - so let’s all ignore one another in Peace. OK? --- Have a good day. Really!! ------- UP Dancer, UP Prancer --- Hihoooo --- Ru-doooof.

Paul – 040313
 

Letsargue

New member
Could be, but, could be error also. How would you know, if you alone are judge? How can you learn and expand your mind if you don't engage in discussion with other Godly folks?
Do you believe that you are the "only" Godly person on this forum?


A Trap maybe?? ---- Romans 3:10-12 KJV ------ True of false???

Truth cannot be error, as Christ cannot be false. - I suppose that you’re implying that maybe I have said that I ( “Alone Am Judge” ). – Read all the Book at the same time, at once in your mind, and you’ll SEE Him who said it all for ever, at the same time also. --- Proverbs 11:14 KJV --- 14- “Where no counsel is, the people fall: ( But in the - “Multitude of Counsellors” - there is safety ). Do you know of them?? – Do you walk with them?? - Do they tell you of things?? - Are you always with them?? ---- “I AM”!! --- That’s why I have no need of Study -- MAYBE!! ----- OOOPPPSSS ----- Matthew 25:31-32 KJV ---&--- Revelation 14:10 KJV ------//--- Isn’t all that as true as John 3:16 KJV - ?? ------//-- Or maybe One is more true than the others??

Paul – 040313
 

bybee

New member
A Trap maybe?? ---- Romans 3:10-12 KJV ------ True of false???

Truth cannot be error, as Christ cannot be false. - I suppose that you’re implying that maybe I have said that I ( “Alone Am Judge” ). – Read all the Book at the same time, at once in your mind, and you’ll SEE Him who said it all for ever, at the same time also. --- Proverbs 11:14 KJV --- 14- “Where no counsel is, the people fall: ( But in the - “Multitude of Counsellors” - there is safety ). Do you know of them?? – Do you walk with them?? - Do they tell you of things?? - Are you always with them?? ---- “I AM”!! --- That’s why I have no need of Study -- MAYBE!! ----- OOOPPPSSS ----- Matthew 25:31-32 KJV ---&--- Revelation 14:10 KJV ------//--- Isn’t all that as true as John 3:16 KJV - ?? ------//-- Or maybe One is more true than the others??

Paul – 040313

Since I am not a theologian I appreciate plain talk when discussing
the Scripture.
1 Corinthians 13:11 Paul says "When I was a child I talked as a child..." I feel that I am still as a child as I study Scripture. That is why I am here on TOL.
The whole of Chapter 13 is particularly meaningful to me.

And, I have discovered, the more I read and discuss Holy Scriptures with other Godly folk the more my mind is expanded and my spirit rewarded.
 
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Nick M

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I don't think the Bible is entirely clear on this issue.

Who cares what you think about the Bible knowing you reject it, you stupid ape. :) Why do you think it is a Greek idea? It is Biblical. Greek ideas are the things floated on TOL that are not in the Bible
 

not4sure

New member
A Trap maybe?? ---- Romans 3:10-12 KJV ------ True of false???

Truth cannot be error, as Christ cannot be false. - I suppose that you’re implying that maybe I have said that I ( “Alone Am Judge” ). – Read all the Book at the same time, at once in your mind, and you’ll SEE Him who said it all for ever, at the same time also. --- Proverbs 11:14 KJV --- 14- “Where no counsel is, the people fall: ( But in the - “Multitude of Counsellors” - there is safety ). Do you know of them?? – Do you walk with them?? - Do they tell you of things?? - Are you always with them?? ---- “I AM”!! --- That’s why I have no need of Study -- MAYBE!! ----- OOOPPPSSS ----- Matthew 25:31-32 KJV ---&--- Revelation 14:10 KJV ------//--- Isn’t all that as true as John 3:16 KJV - ?? ------//-- Or maybe One is more true than the others??

Paul – 040313

ADD much?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member


toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism,
which do you believe and why?


I believe in Eternal Torment. That eternal separation from God forever, to suffer in torment for being unrepentent, sin loving, Christ hating and making a mockery of "The Great I AM," and for rejecting Jesus as Savior. Anyway that eternal separation as in...
Luke 16:19-26 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate...desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table...So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'"

The Rest...

Annihilationism. At the end, remembered no more. It makes think about Noah and flood...
Genesis 6:5-8. Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

While the body maybe ground to powered and scattered to the four winds and is gone, I believe the soul is eternal and dies not, God created man to be a living soul and breathed the breath of life into him, God's breath was breathed into to Adam and he became a living soul.

Universalism. A theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved, I don't think so, if that were to be the case then Jesus died in vain and our hope and redemption along with our faith is in vain.
Excellent post! :thumb:
 

Quasar1011

New member
I don't believe in annihilationism, because Paul said this:

Philippians 1:22-24
If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

If death is better by far, how could he be referring to a state of non-existence?

Besides that, we have conversations from the grave in the O.T.

Isaiah 14:9-11
The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”

All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.

Isaiah 14:15-17
But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Didn't they show that guy in the movie, "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Part II"? He was shivering under a park bench in the King's Cross station when Harry met Dumbledor on the 'other side.'
 

Letsargue

New member
Since I am not a theologian I appreciate plain talk when discussing
the Scripture.
1 Corinthians 13:11 Paul says "When I was a child I talked as a child..." I feel that I am still as a child as I study Scripture. That is why I am here on TOL.
The whole of Chapter 13 is particularly meaningful to me.

And, I have discovered, the more I read and discuss Holy Scriptures with other Godly folk the more my mind is expanded and my spirit rewarded.


1 Corinthians 13:9-13 KJV --- 9- “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10- But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11- When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12- For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13- And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity”. -------///--- Paul just got through saying that that was then, not “Later”. ---- There must be something to that, - besides what comes after a total destroying of the whole creation. – Something Must still be around, from what Paul is saying it will be Like AFTER, or “THEN”, “Then”?? – When, what, how shall I “Know” even as I also “AM KNOWN”; -- and by whom if not God face to face. --- Again: ---- Matthew 18:10 KJV ---&--- Hebrews 13:2 KJV ------///--- Must these hard to grasp stuff with the mind, - must they be untrue??? --- I realize it’s very Heavy stuff. --- Look, a fun thing. ---- A person bearing a heavy load, is said to be ( Heavy “Laden” ). What if that person could only be a woman?? - and in Truth, that’s the very way God works in Spirit. – (( Truth speaks Truth in Truth )). Who carries the Heavy Burden?? -- The man is the “Lader”, and it is he who burdens the “LADIE”. – I thought I’d throw that in for YOU. – Who hath seen a virtuous woman?? – Proverbs 31:10-31 KJV --- 10- Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11- The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12- She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13- She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14- She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15- She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16- She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17- She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms”: ------>>>>-----///--- 31. --- That's the Bride of Christ the Church, the Wife of Christ, Christ is her Husband seen in the gates of the City, New Jerusalem ---?.

Paul – 040313


Matthew 11:28 KJV --- 28- “Come unto me, all ye that ( “Labour” and are heavy “Laden” ), and I will give you rest. ----///--- That is Jesus saying to those who WILL be Christians, that the “Labor” and heavy “Laden” are from Him in the Spiritual when the time of the Spirit arrives. Jesus is saying in Spirit that He is the “Lader” who is giving His “Ladie” / “Lady” a heavy burden which makes her heavy “Laden”. --- The Lord’s “Ladie” is heavy “Laden” by the “Lader” / Jesus, but joyfully; - not as Israel in Egypt as slaves; though we / the Bride of Christ are Servants of Christ, - heavy “Laden” in Faith with Joy and Peace and Rest from the Burden of Satan. -------- Words have changed since then. – Really, - the only one here who may be up on such as this is AMR, - So how about it AMR, -- Really!!

Paul – 040313
 
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