ECT Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

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musterion

Well-known member
Well, I can see by your reply that you have not yet learned to distinguish between "faith" and "believing"

Nope. Synonymous. God does not overcomplicate these things. You do.

God gives "faith" when we believe Romans 10:9-10 to receive salvation.

a. Romans 10:9-10 isn't Paul talking about us, he's talking about Israel.

b. God does not give saving faith.

Faith is another word for the gift of salvation/holy spirit/eternal life

Congratulations, you're no better than B57 crowing that God is glorified when He sends people to the Lake of Fire for refusing to exercise an ability which He refused to give them.

God does not exhort us to be lazy Christians but "not slothful in business, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord"

Strawman. No one said He does.

It takes work to maintain our fellowship, not sonship with God. That work includes confessing our sins,our errors after salvation can be cleansed.

Translation: God will owe you Heaven as earned payment for your work, for keeping up your end of the "deal." You're a contractual salvationist, which is another word for probationist.

God expects us to renew our minds which includes acknowledging our old man nature which we are to reckon dead, but that takes work. Until we reckon that old man dead totally and completely in all facets of our lives we will continue to err.

You deny salvation by works but admittedly make EVERYTHING into a work. You are truly stupid.

God does not count those errors against our salvation

He does if you fail to confess them. They're NOT FORGIVEN IF THEY'RE NOT CONFESSED, remember? You're the one who cited that first, now swallow all of it.

I John 1:3

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

why did they declare those things?

So that we MAY have fellowhship with who?

a. the Father and with his son and with the fellow believers

b. the Father and His son and with the Holy spirit and with the fellow believers

John wasn't talking to or about you. Not your apostle.

We are justified but that does not prevent our sinning in the flesh.

It sure doesn't, but the flesh cannot affect justification.

Have you not read Romans 7?

Are you so ignorant of scripture that you do not realize that Paul, the great apostle to whom God gave the revelation of the great mystery< still had problems with doing everything right?

See below.

So, why not read Romans 7 and learn something so you don't have any excuse think your are a perfect believer.

Here's a surprise for you: I do not think I'm a perfect believer. There IS NO "perfect believer" this side of death or glorification out of this body of flesh. Not even Paul was, as he admitted.

But again, you miss the big point: God does not look at those in Christ according to the flesh, but only in Him. Paul rested in that fact. So do I.

Get saved, please.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I do not believe you.

You don't believe me nor do you believe the Lord Jesus when He said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Tell us again why you think that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You don't believe me nor do you believe the Lord Jesus when He said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Tell us again why you think that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.


You have the answer in front of your face and still cannot see it. :nono:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You have the answer in front of your face and still cannot see it.

So are you saying that none of the Jews who lived under the law were saved before Paul was converted? If your answer is "no" then tell us how those Jews were saved.

Let me give you a hint. Here is what the Lord Jesus said to a Jewish woman who lived under the law:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
So are you saying that none of the Jews who lived under the law were saved before Paul was converted? If your answer is "no" then tell us how those Jews were saved.

Let me give you a hint. Here is what the Lord Jesus said to a Jewish woman who lived under the law:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Faith alone, Jerry?

Luke 7:44-46 she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Faith alone, Jerry?

Luke 7:44-46 she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.​

If her works saved her then why did the Lord Jesus only mention her faith--"thy faith hath saved thee."

And if it took more than faith for the Jews who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus tell them the following?:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

All you do is to try your best to prove that what the Lord Jesus said at John 6:47 is not true. And you do your very best to prove what is written here is in error:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

You prove over and over that you don't believe that and you refuse to even give us your interpretation of the meaning of those words.

Why is that?

You have the answer in front of your face and still cannot see it.

So are you saying that none of the Jews were saved before Paul was converted? If your answer is "no" then tell us how those Jews were saved.

You consider yourself an expert on what it took for them to be saved so tell us what those Jews had to do to be saved.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Enemies of the cross.

You are an enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ because you tell anyone who will listen that He was wrong when He told the Jews who lived under the law that those who "believe" and nothing more are saved:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
(Jn.6:47).​

According to you "faith" alone was not sufficient to save those who lived under the law and the Lord's "words" were in themselves insufficient to bring them spirital life even though He said the following to them:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

You talk big but when it comes to giving us your interpretation of the meaning of these two verses you run and hide.

Why is that?
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
How many baptisms did you guys have yesterday, Jerry?

Why do you run and hide from the words of the Lord Jesus which I quoted, musterion?

Are you afraid that you will expose yourself as either being unable to understand spiritual things or is it because you don't want to expose yourself as being an enemy of the lord Jesus?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
You are an enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ because you tell anyone who will listen that He was wrong when He told the Jews who lived under the law that those who "believe" and nothing more are saved:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
(Jn.6:47).​

According to you "faith" alone was not sufficient to save those who lived under the law and the Lord's "words" were in themselves insufficient to bring them spirital life even though He said the following to them:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

You talk big but when it comes to giving us your interpretation of the meaning of these two verses you run and hide.

Why is that?


You’re not listening. They’re trying to expound the truth to you.

The Abrahamic Covenant of faith was Unilateral and Unconditional. The Mosaic Covenant of the Law was Bilateral and Conditional. And the Mosiac Law was not merely codification, but was promissory. The “Ten Commandments” weren’t actually commands at all. They were “The Ten Words”, whereby all those who adhered to the Abrahamic Covenant had specific promises.

There was no emphatic used, so Exodus would better read like this is translation:
You’re not going to have any other God’s before me (because I’ve given you the faith).
You’re not going to kill or steal or bear false witness or covet (because I’ve given you the faith).

“Thou shalt not” is not primariy or exclusively a prohibition, but was a promissory statement to all who adhered to the Abrahamic Covenant.

The “keeping” of the Law was by faith, and was more about being kept by God through faith as a sheep are kept safe when bedded down by the briars and thorns the shepherd/s put around them for protection. The Mosaic Law was for protection by promise, not a prescribed course of action to save them by their own works.

The same is true of the Gospel which fulfilled the temporary form of covenant that was the Law. Nothing we have done or can do will save us, now or ever. No keeping of ordinances or actions contribute one thing to our salvation, which is wrought in Christ alone by His finished work on the cross and its imputation and ascription to us and on our behalf.

Faith is a noun that has believing in it, so faith is going to be accompanied by works. But one cannot judge by outer appearances what the source of the works is. The good works could all be sin. There could be corrupt works that don’t represent the saving faith that is in the hearts of Believers. Outer appearances are deceptive, and works of the Law don’t save.

The works of faith will be inevitable, but cannot be determined by constantly assessing outward appearances. The promise of the authentic Gospel is that the righteousness and finished work of Christ is sufficient, and none of our own works can atone for sin (the condition).

Repentance and confession are nouns before they can be verbs as action coming from those sources. If someone has been granted repentance from their sin condition, then no amount of external human judgment of their works is going to matter.

Sin is not sinS. The condition is not the resulting actions from acting as sinning. All who are saved have had their sin atoned. SinS are the residue of the old man, and none of us are going to be rid of all of those actions on this side of glory.

You’re conflating the works of the Law with the works of faith, and the former will never save anyone. Only faith saves, though the guarantee is that the noun of faith will produce works on some scale with the promise that no works of the flesh will remain after final judgment.

You preach a false Gospel and don’t know what Law is as covenant that is fulfilled in Christ.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You preach a false Gospel and don’t know what Law is as covenant that is fulfilled in Christ.

You do not understand that the Jewsish believers who lived under the law were saved by grace trough faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

If you think that grace and works are compatible then you don't understand salvation on the principle of grace and therefore since you don't understand it you are incapabable of believing that gospel.

You accuse me of preaching a false gospel but if a person preaches the gospel of grace and asserts that some people who are saved by grace must do works in order to receive that grace then that person is the one who is preaching a false gospel.

Since you are quick to accuse others of preaching a false gospel then I am certain that you will tell us why anyone should believe that it took more than faith to be saved under the law since the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
(Jn.6:47).​

Why did the Lord only mention "faith" as a condition of receiving salvation?
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Nope. Synonymous. God does not overcomplicate these things. You do.



a. Romans 10:9-10 isn't Paul talking about us, he's talking about Israel.

b. God does not give saving faith.



Congratulations, you're no better than B57 crowing that God is glorified when He sends people to the Lake of Fire for refusing to exercise an ability which He refused to give them.



Strawman. No one said He does.



Translation: God will owe you Heaven as earned payment for your work, for keeping up your end of the "deal." You're a contractual salvationist, which is another word for probationist.



You deny salvation by works but admittedly make EVERYTHING into a work. You are truly stupid.



He does if you fail to confess them. They're NOT FORGIVEN IF THEY'RE NOT CONFESSED, remember? You're the one who cited that first, now swallow all of it.



John wasn't talking to or about you. Not your apostle.



It sure doesn't, but the flesh cannot affect justification.



See below.



Here's a surprise for you: I do not think I'm a perfect believer. There IS NO "perfect believer" this side of death or glorification out of this body of flesh. Not even Paul was, as he admitted.

But again, you miss the big point: God does not look at those in Christ according to the flesh, but only in Him. Paul rested in that fact. So do I.

Get saved, please.
Nope. Synonymous. God does not overcomplicate these things. You do.

Hey, you ignored a question from a previous post of mine!

I John 1:3

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

why did they declare those things?

So that we MAY have fellowhship with who?

a. the Father and with his son and with the fellow believers

b. the Father and His son and with the Holy spirit and with the fellow believers


So why isn't the Holy Spirit allowed to fellowship with the Father and with his son and with the believers?

a. He joined a cult?

b. He started a cult?

c. He was banished from being part of the trinity?

d. Nobody likes him any more?

e. Nobody knows much about him so nobody wants to fellowship with him

f. He ceased with the cessation of speaking in tongues

g. All of the above


Synonymous? Really?

Show me.

It would be useful for you to provide a definition for faith and believing that fits all places that the words faith and believing appear in scripture.

Once you have shown me that all uses mean the same thing, then I will read further.
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
You do not understand that the Jewsish believers who lived under the law were saved by grace trough faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

If you think that grace and works are compatible then you don't understand salvation on the principle of grace and therefore since you don't understand it you are incapabable of believing that gospel.

You accuse me of preaching a false gospel but if a person preaches the gospel of grace and asserts that some people who are saved by grace must do works in order to receive that grace then that person is the one who is preaching a false gospel.

Since you are quick to accuse others of preaching a false gospel then I am certain that you will tell us why anyone should believe that it took more than faith to be saved under the law since the Lord Jesus said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
(Jn.6:47).​

Why did the Lord only mention "faith" as a condition of receiving salvation?

I actually said that the Jews under the Law were saved by grace through faith, and not by the works of the Law.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Hey, you ignored a question from a previous post of mine!

I John 1:3

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

why did they declare those things?

So that we MAY have fellowhship with who?

a. the Father and with his son and with the fellow believers

b. the Father and His son and with the Holy spirit and with the fellow believers

I didn't answer it because it's based on a flawed premise. So it can't be answered intelligently, it can only be shown to be wrong.

Problem is, you've been wrong so many times before, and shown where and why you're wrong, that it's a waste of time because you don't listen, because you're lost. But for those playing at home, the red is a clue where you're wrong.


Synonymous? Really?

Show me.
Nope. Burden of proof is to show from Paul -- your only apostle, like it or not -- where they're not.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Enemies of the cross.

You are an enemy of the Lord Jesus Christ because you tell anyone who will listen that He was wrong when He told the Jews who lived under the law that those who "believe" and nothing more are saved:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"
(Jn.6:47).​

According to you "faith" alone was not sufficient to save those who lived under the law and the Lord's "words" were in themselves insufficient to bring them spirital life even though He said the following to them:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

You talk big but when it comes to giving us your interpretation of the meaning of these two verses you run and hide.

Why is that?
 
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