ECT AUTHORITY OF THE APOSTLES HANDED ON: Apostolic Succession

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
Yes, He lied; very good job there. :plain:

:rolleyes:

I don't like doing this. Why are you picking a fight over a dumb thing? Are you mad because you can't disprove Catholicism? Relax. Everything's fine.
Universal Catholic Church still stands.
The Roman Catholic denomination are on its own
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
church-history-powerpoint-11-728.jpg

Questions or Comments?

Agreed.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member

Do you really think that Pope John XXIII was the Vicar of Christ despite what we read here about him?:

"The Vicar of Christ was only accused of piracy, murder, rape, sodomy, and incest; the most scandalous charges were suppressed."



Besides that, the following describes the condition of things in the mansion of St. Peter during the reign of Pope Alexander VI:

"Everything can be had for money. Crimes grosser than Scythian are committed without disguise under the eyes of the Pope. There are rapes, murders, incests, debaucheries, cruelties, exceeding those of the Neros and Caligulas. Licentiousness past description is paraded in contempt of God and man. Sons and daughters are polluted. Harlots and procuresses are gathered together in the mansion of St. Peter. On All Saints' day fifty women of the town were invited to dinner. The details of what followed are barely mentionable."
 
Last edited:

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Do you really think that Pope John XXIII was the Vicar of Christ despite what we read here about him?:

"The Vicar of Christ was only accused of piracy, murder, rape, sodomy, and incest; the most scandalous charges were suppressed."

What I really think is that you are a complete total idiot. John XXIII was pope when JFK was president. He was the pope of the 2nd Vatican Council. You are trying to say he was a pirate? I really think you are retarded. I don't even want to talk to you anymore. Go get a life you freak.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What I really think is that you are a complete total idiot. John XXIII was pope when JFK was president. He was the pope of the 2nd Vatican Council. You are trying to say he was a pirate? I really think you are retarded. I don't even want to talk to you anymore. Go get a life you freak.

Wish you could hold off on the name-calling. It really isn't fit on a Christian website.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
church-history-powerpoint-11-728.jpg
Questions or Comments?

ARTICLE permission to quote is allowed
Apostolic Succession Is Assurance of Truth
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/apostolic-succession-is-assurance-of-truth

Why should we care what the Church Fathers said? For many Catholics, the question may seem odd, and the answer may seem obvious. But for some Catholics, and I suspect for many Protestants, it’s a fair question.

You see, ever since the dawn of the modern age (not very long ago in the big picture), the Western world has been laboring under the mistaken assumption that simply because we live later in time than ancient people we are naturally more enlightened than they were. Then, in the last century, advances in medicine and technology have convinced us that we must be smarter than anyone who lived even a few hundred years ago, let alone almost 2,000 years ago.

But is that true? Do obvious improvements in some areas of life necessarily mean that philosophy and theology are also improving over time?

Our Catholic Faith—and really any faith that is handed down from one generation to the next—is built on the assumption that truth does not, in fact, evolve, and get “more true” over time. Instead, truth has a source. For us that source is God’s self-revelation in Jesus Christ. This is the historical event that we call the Incarnation. “The Word became flesh” (John 1:14), which means the divine Word, the Son of the Father and Second Person of the Trinity, acquired a human nature in order to reach out to humanity and reconcile us to our Creator.

And since this happened in human history, that means that there were real people who knew Jesus personally. Some of these were called his disciples, and most of those disciples (along with some others) became the people we call apostles. The word apostle means one who is sent out, and the apostles were the ones sent by Jesus to take his message of reconciliation into the world. So, rather than thinking we are naturally smarter than people who lived in the time of Jesus and the apostles, we actually believe that it’s important to listen to the people who lived closer in time to the Source of truth.

But the apostles couldn’t live forever, and when the time came, they handed the baton to those whom they chose and commissioned to succeed them. These successors of the apostles were the first bishops of the Church. Those bishops were the custodians of the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. It was their job to pass on those teachings faithfully, and we believe that, with the help of the Holy Spirit, they did (see John 14:26).

This is part of the point of my book, Handed Down. The teachings of the Catholic Faith of today are trustworthy because they have been faithfully handed down through the generations in an unbroken chain that goes all the way back to the apostles and Jesus. We call this chain of teaching authority “apostolic succession.”

So who are the Church fathers? They are the early bishops—the successors of the apostles—along with other early theologians and catechists who passed on the Faith. But in addition to passing the Faith along, every generation had to further clarify and explain the Tradition and practices of the Church as well as interpret the Scripture that is itself a part of that Tradition. To be clear, every generation confirmed the conclusions of the previous generations, so we’re not saying that later generations changed Tradition. But each generation did build on the foundation of prior Tradition.

This is important, because in many ways it was the Church Fathers who defined Christianity itself by clarifying important doctrines like that of the Trinity. Even though the word Trinity doesn’t appear in Scripture, I would say that anyone who does not believe in God as a Trinity cannot call himself a Christian (let alone a Catholic). Of course, the concept of the Trinity is quite biblical (see, for example, Matthew 28:19), but it was the Church Fathers who had to interpret and clarify Scripture regarding the Trinity—and it took them 300 years before they were ready even to begin writing the Nicene Creed.

Truth doesn’t evolve. In fact, if we’re not careful, the transmission of it will devolve over time, like a game of “telephone.” But we can be confident that our Faith has not lost anything to the passing of time because of apostolic succession and because of the promise of Jesus recorded in Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”

I take that promise to mean that the Holy Spirit will guide and protect the Church so that it can never become something other than what Jesus intended it to be. Contrary to what the Protestant Reformers thought, the Church could never go off the rails to such an extent that it would cease to be the Church. If it did, then hell would win. But that can never happen, because Jesus made this promise.

Therefore, for us to remain connected to our faith, we also have to remain connected to those who came before us in the Faith. In the computer world, we hear a lot about being connected to “the cloud.” But there is a much more important cloud, what the author of the letter to the Hebrews called the “cloud of witnesses” (Hebrews 12:1-2). This is the communion of the saints who went before us and who now cheer us on and intercede for us as we run the race of faith.

So we as Catholics may find that we have to answer the question, Why should we care what the Church Fathers said? We care because our Faith is historical. It is not mythical; it has its origins in God’s intervention in the history of the Hebrew people, and especially in God’s revelation in the person of Jesus Christ. And the people who lived closest to that time might just have understood something about Jesus’ life and message that we will miss if we look only at the Bible, and only through our twenty-first-century eyes.

The good news is that there is a lot of material left to us by the Church Fathers, and a lot of it is accessible online. To see a selected list of writings of the Church Fathers, with links to the documents online, go to:
Reading the Early Church Fathers , and click on “Links to Primary Documents.”
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
What I really think is that you are a complete total idiot. John XXIII was pope when JFK was president. He was the pope of the 2nd Vatican Council. You are trying to say he was a pirate? I really think you are retarded. I don't even want to talk to you anymore. Go get a life you freak.

Alexander V died soon after, and on 25 May 1410 Cossa was consecrated a bishop, taking the name John XXIII. He had become an ordained priest only one day earlier. John XXIII was acknowledged as pope by France, England, Bohemia, Portugal, parts of the Holy Roman Empire, and numerous Northern Italian city states, including Florence and Venice and the Patriarchate of Aquileia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope_John_XXIII

Besides that, the following describes the condition of things in the mansion of St. Peter during the reign of Pope Alexander VI:

"Everything can be had for money. Crimes grosser than Scythian are committed without disguise under the eyes of the Pope. There are rapes, murders, incests, debaucheries, cruelties, exceeding those of the Neros and Caligulas. Licentiousness past description is paraded in contempt of God and man. Sons and daughters are polluted. Harlots and procuresses are gathered together in the mansion of St. Peter. On All Saints' day fifty women of the town were invited to dinner. The details of what followed are barely mentionable."
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Alexander V died soon after, and on 25 May 1410 Cossa was consecrated a bishop, taking the name John XXIII. He had become an ordained priest only one day earlier. John XXIII was acknowledged as pope by France, England, Bohemia, Portugal, parts of the Holy Roman Empire, and numerous Northern Italian city states, including Florence and Venice and the Patriarchate of Aquileia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipope_John_XXIII


LOL. LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE QUOTING: It says "Antipope".

OMG. You really ARE retarded aren't you.


Pope John XXIII
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XXIII

Pope John XXIII (Latin: Ioannes; Italian: Giovanni; born Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli, Italian pronunciation: 25 November 1881 – 3 June 1963) was head of the Catholic Church and sovereign of the Vatican City State from 28 October 1958 to his death in 1963


Eisenhower and Pope John XXIII
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
The topic of this thread is Apostolic Authority. I reached my limit of hate and ignorance and off topic posts. They will be reported from now on. If you cannot address the topic then stay out.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
LOL. LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE QUOTING: It says "Antipope".

OMG. You really ARE retarded aren't you.

He was acknowledged as Pope by France, England, Bohemia, Portugal, parts of the Holy Roman Empire, and numerous Northern Italian city states, including Florence and Venice and the Patriarchate of Aquileia.

The Church at Rome plays a little game with their Popes. If they turn out to be bad then and only then do they call them Antipopes.

ANOTHER SCANDAL


Pope Benedict IX took the papacy in 1032 when he was in his 20s and got the position only because of his father’s substantial bribes. He was born Theophylactus of Tusculum and had absolutely no qualifications to be Pope. His lifestyle was one that was not at all suited to the papacy or the church. Historian Ferdinand Gregorovius wrote that Pope Benedict IX was “a demon from hell, in the disguise of a priest.”

Pope Benedict IX got his reputation due to his penchant for illicit relationships and sponsoring orgies. Some even said that he was homosexual and practiced bestiality. Pope Victor II wrote that Pope Benedict IX was “so vile, so foul, so execrable, that I shudder to think of it.” Pope Benedict IX not only feasted on food and flesh throughout his time as Pope but he used the church coffers to do it.

In 1036 the people had enough of him and expelled him from Rome. Emperor Conrad II helped Pope Benedict return to Rome after expelling some of his opponents from their sees. Bishop Benno of Piacenza had accused the Pope of “many vile adulteries and murders.” Pope Benedict IX stayed in power until his lifestyle of sodomy, murder, and depravity caused him to be ousted again in 1044. Pope Sylvester II was put in place but Pope Benedict IX returned with his forces and expelled Pope Sylvester II.

The struggles with keeping the papacy made Pope Benedict IX wonder if it was worth it. He decided to offer the papacy to his godfather John Gratian if he would pay his election expenses. John Gratian agreed hoping to finally remove Pope Benedict IX for good. However, in July 1046, after successfully selling the papacy, Benedict changed his mind and returned to Rome. Emperor Henry III denounced Pope Benedict IX and his godfather and Pope Clement II was crowned. After Pope Clement II died in 1047, Benedict once again seized power until he was driven away in 1048. He refused to face charges of simony in 1049 and was excommunicated from the church.

https://historycollection.co/popes-behaving-badly-papal-scandals/2/
 
Last edited:

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The topic of this thread is Apostolic Authority.

Yes, and Rome teaches that the following Pope had the authority which Peter had:

"Pope John XII took the Papacy in 955 when he was just 18. He was known to have sex with both men and women who ventured into the papal residence and anyone who refused his attentions ended up raped anyway. He was also said to engaged in incestuous relationships with his niece and his sisters.

Even beyond committing adultery and turning the papal palace into little more than a brothel was his bloodlust. Pope John XII was known to be brutal to those that opposed him. In Patrologia Latina he was accused of castrating and murdering a cardinal and also of blinding and murdering his accuser. Pope John XII was fond of political intrigue and granted Otto I of Germany the title of emperor in the hopes of protecting himself from a growing list of political enemies.

However, not even Otto I could look away from the sins of Pope XII for long. He wrote to the Pope asking him to stop his sensual lifestyle and accused the Pope of “living his whole life in vanity and adultery.” Pope John XII feared that Otto I was gaining too much power and sent envoys to watch the emperor. They were quickly caught and the relationship between the Pope and the Emperor soured. In 963, the city of Rome was also divided between those that supported John and those that wanted him removed.

Otto I summoned a counsel in 963 and ordered John to present himself and answer to a number of charges. John responded by threatening to excommunicate his enemies. The council deposed John and put Pope Leo VIII in his place. When Otto I left Rome, John and his supporters retook power and deposed Leo VIII. Pope John XII mutilated those that stood against him and tried to make amends with Otto I. Before anything could move forward Pope John XII died, either through apoplexy while committing adultery, or at the hands of the furious husband."

https://historycollection.co/popes-b...al-scandals/3/
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The topic of this thread is Apostolic Authority.

Rome teaches that the following Pope had the Apostolic authority of Peter:

"Pope Julius III was elected with nowhere near the scandal, murder, or bribes of many of his predecessors. He came to power in 1550 and was elected as a compromise candidate between three competing factions within the conclave. Pope Julius III came to power by supporters who wished to reconvene the Council of Trent and reform the church. Pope Julius did make some feeble attempts to do what his supporters wanted but most of his time was taken up by other interests.

Pope Julius III had two main interests, renovating his home by looting the papal treasury and passions of the flesh. Villa Giula was his personal mansion, and with the money from the coffers he was able to hire the very best, including Michelangelo to turn his home into an unparalleled masterpiece. He had little interest in actually performing any of the duties of the Pope but he still was able to ruin the standing of the papacy with his exploits.

He liked to have sex and lots of it and with those were looked like or actually were young kids. It was rumored that he had Michelangelo decorate his home with sculptures of what many might consider today to be child pornography. It was no secret to the people of Rome what Pope Julius III was up to. Giovanni Della Casa even wrote a poem about the Pope’s practice of sodomizing young boys.

Things got even worse when Julius started granting young men the position of Cardinal. It got even worse when his family adopted a young beggar boy, that Julius became obsessed with. Julius showered him with riches and positions within the church, including the powerful position of Cardinal-Nephew. Julius was even known to brag about how good the boy was in bed. Despite several attempts to distance the Pope from the church through temporary banishment (after he killed two men and then again after he raped two women), it was not until his death in 1555 that the Church was free of him."

See: "Popes Behaving Badly: 8 Dreadful Papal Scandals From the Middle Ages"
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
ARTICLE permission to quote is allowed
Apostolic Succession Is Assurance of Truth
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/apostolic-succession-is-assurance-of-truth

Why should we care what the Church Fathers said? For many Catholics, the question may seem odd, and the answer may seem obvious. But for some Catholics, and I suspect for many Protestants, it’s a fair question.

You see, ever since the dawn of the modern age (not very long ago in the big picture), the Western world has been laboring under the mistaken assumption that simply because we live later in time than ancient people we are naturally more enlightened than they were. Then, in the last century, advances in medicine and technology have convinced us that we must be smarter than anyone who lived even a few hundred years ago, let alone almost 2,000 years ago.

But is that true? Do obvious improvements in some areas of life necessarily mean that philosophy and theology are also improving over time?

Our Catholic Faith—and really any faith that is handed down from one generation to the next—is built on the assumption that truth does not, in fact, evolve, and get “more true” over time. Instead, truth has a source. For us that source is God’s self-revelation in Jesus Christ. This is the historical event that we call the Incarnation. “The Word became flesh” (John 1:14), which means the divine Word, the Son of the Father and Second Person of the Trinity, acquired a human nature in order to reach out to humanity and reconcile us to our Creator.

And since this happened in human history, that means that there were real people who knew Jesus personally. Some of these were called his disciples, and most of those disciples (along with some others) became the people we call apostles. The word apostle means one who is sent out, and the apostles were the ones sent by Jesus to take his message of reconciliation into the world. So, rather than thinking we are naturally smarter than people who lived in the time of Jesus and the apostles, we actually believe that it’s important to listen to the people who lived closer in time to the Source of truth.

But the apostles couldn’t live forever, and when the time came, they handed the baton to those whom they chose and commissioned to succeed them. These successors of the apostles were the first bishops of the Church. Those bishops were the custodians of the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. It was their job to pass on those teachings faithfully, and we believe that, with the help of the Holy Spirit, they did (see John 14:26).

This is part of the point of my book, Handed Down. The teachings of the Catholic Faith of today are trustworthy because they have been faithfully handed down through the generations in an unbroken chain that goes all the way back to the apostles and Jesus. We call this chain of teaching authority “apostolic succession.”

So who are the Church fathers? They are the early bishops—the successors of the apostles—along with other early theologians and catechists who passed on the Faith. But in addition to passing the Faith along, every generation had to further clarify and explain the Tradition and practices of the Church as well as interpret the Scripture that is itself a part of that Tradition. To be clear, every generation confirmed the conclusions of the previous generations, so we’re not saying that later generations changed Tradition. But each generation did build on the foundation of prior Tradition.

This is important, because in many ways it was the Church Fathers who defined Christianity itself by clarifying important doctrines like that of the Trinity. Even though the word Trinity doesn’t appear in Scripture, I would say that anyone who does not believe in God as a Trinity cannot call himself a Christian (let alone a Catholic). Of course, the concept of the Trinity is quite biblical (see, for example, Matthew 28:19), but it was the Church Fathers who had to interpret and clarify Scripture regarding the Trinity—and it took them 300 years before they were ready even to begin writing the Nicene Creed.

Truth doesn’t evolve. In fact, if we’re not careful, the transmission of it will devolve over time, like a game of “telephone.” But we can be confident that our Faith has not lost anything to the passing of time because of apostolic succession and because of the promise of Jesus recorded in Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”

I take that promise to mean that the Holy Spirit will guide and protect the Church so that it can never become something other than what Jesus intended it to be. Contrary to what the Protestant Reformers thought, the Church could never go off the rails to such an extent that it would cease to be the Church. If it did, then hell would win. But that can never happen, because Jesus made this promise.

Therefore, for us to remain connected to our faith, we also have to remain connected to those who came before us in the Faith. In the computer world, we hear a lot about being connected to “the cloud.” But there is a much more important cloud, what the author of the letter to the Hebrews called the “cloud of witnesses” (Hebrews 12:1-2). This is the communion of the saints who went before us and who now cheer us on and intercede for us as we run the race of faith.

So we as Catholics may find that we have to answer the question, Why should we care what the Church Fathers said? We care because our Faith is historical. It is not mythical; it has its origins in God’s intervention in the history of the Hebrew people, and especially in God’s revelation in the person of Jesus Christ. And the people who lived closest to that time might just have understood something about Jesus’ life and message that we will miss if we look only at the Bible, and only through our twenty-first-century eyes.

The good news is that there is a lot of material left to us by the Church Fathers, and a lot of it is accessible online. To see a selected list of writings of the Church Fathers, with links to the documents online, go to:
Reading the Early Church Fathers , and click on “Links to Primary Documents.”

I don't see anybody have proven this wrong.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Your behavior is far worse than theirs.

So now you are defending the Popes who Rome said had the Apostolic authority of Peter?

That means you must really be proud of Pope John XII:

"Pope John XII took the Papacy in 955 when he was just 18. He was known to have sex with both men and women who ventured into the papal residence and anyone who refused his attentions ended up raped anyway. He was also said to engaged in incestuous relationships with his niece and his sisters.

Even beyond committing adultery and turning the papal palace into little more than a brothel was his bloodlust. Pope John XII was known to be brutal to those that opposed him. In Patrologia Latina he was accused of castrating and murdering a cardinal and also of blinding and murdering his accuser. Pope John XII was fond of political intrigue and granted Otto I of Germany the title of emperor in the hopes of protecting himself from a growing list of political enemies.

However, not even Otto I could look away from the sins of Pope XII for long. He wrote to the Pope asking him to stop his sensual lifestyle and accused the Pope of “living his whole life in vanity and adultery.” Pope John XII feared that Otto I was gaining too much power and sent envoys to watch the emperor. They were quickly caught and the relationship between the Pope and the Emperor soured. In 963, the city of Rome was also divided between those that supported John and those that wanted him removed.

Otto I summoned a counsel in 963 and ordered John to present himself and answer to a number of charges. John responded by threatening to excommunicate his enemies. The council deposed John and put Pope Leo VIII in his place. When Otto I left Rome, John and his supporters retook power and deposed Leo VIII. Pope John XII mutilated those that stood against him and tried to make amends with Otto I. Before anything could move forward Pope John XII died, either through apoplexy while committing adultery, or at the hands of the furious husband."

See: "Popes Behaving Badly: 8 Dreadful Papal Scandals From the Middle Ages"
 
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