this thread is about forgiving
do you have anything to say about that?
do you have anything to say about that?
ECT Forgiving and Forgiveness
- Thread starter Psalmist
- Start date
There's a lot of his "types" around here. They're Christian, in name only.
Well, let's talk about it. What do you want to know about it?
do you think you have to forgive in order to be forgiven?
Nanja
Well-known member
No, it isn't. Did you read the verse from Romans 4? Read it again...and again. It's right there. It would bite you if it was a snake.
Being persuaded of a truth is not something we do. It's something the truth accomplishes just because of it's very existence as truth. Did I have one single thing to do with it raining? Now, if I were to do something, I'd have to close my eyes and run in the house....then I could claim it wasn't raining. Then you could claim I'd done something.
No one of himself, by nature, can do anything that pleases God Rom. 8:7-8.
His own freewill choices to please God are as filthy rags Is. 64:6.
Because while one is in the flesh / carnal, his heart is wicked Jer. 17:9.
So then the believing which pleases God cannot precede New Birth.
Believing unto Salvation is given by God to one whom He has given a New Heart in the New Birth Ezek 36:26-27.
That's the only kind of heart with which they can believe unto salvation Rom. 10:9.
And so it follows that for one to believe unto salvation it must be given him of God Phil. 1:29; John 3:27.
There's no other way!
~~~~~
beloved57
Well-known member
gloryd
The result of it is, believing ! The greek word for believe πιστεύω is a verb ! When Paul told the Jailor to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ Acts 16:31 He was telling him to perform an action, for the word believe is in the greek here an imperative. In case you dont know what an imperative is, heres its definition:
The imperative mood is a command or instruction given to the hearer, charging the hearer to carry out or perform a certain action.
Now fo you deny that believing is a performing of a action by the hearer ?
The result of it is, believing ! The greek word for believe πιστεύω is a verb ! When Paul told the Jailor to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ Acts 16:31 He was telling him to perform an action, for the word believe is in the greek here an imperative. In case you dont know what an imperative is, heres its definition:
The imperative mood is a command or instruction given to the hearer, charging the hearer to carry out or perform a certain action.
Now fo you deny that believing is a performing of a action by the hearer ?
beloved57
Well-known member
That poster is deceived into thinking that believing is not something a person does !
here we go again
we will have to forgive them
I know it is hard
we will have to forgive them
I know it is hard
Nanja
Well-known member
No.
My understanding is that I have already been forgiven all trespasses and sins.
And that, having been forgiven all trespasses and sins, is to be the motive - grace motivation, or "faith; which worketh by love" that is motivated by God's love for us in His Son's death for our sin - for forgiving others.
We apply the same standard for forgiving them that God applied in forgiving us of all our trespasses and sins in His Son at the Cross - unmerited favor.
We look at the Cross and say to ourselves 'just as God has forgiven me of all my trespasses and sins without any merit on my part, I forgive this person that has failed some standard of mine; I forgive them, by not holding them to this standard of mine - without any merit on their part.'
Its a great system of victory over the pain others cause us because we don't have to wait until they do right by us. Instead, we can see their having wronged us an opportunity to thank God for having forgiven us in His Son when we were yet sinners, by forgiving them just as God forgave us, for Christ's sake.
And this is an issue of faith, not of feeling, nor of waiting until we feel like forgiving others.
'I forgive this person, not because I feel inclined to - in fact, what I really want to do is ring their neck [be ye angry, and sin not]! -
Rather, I forgive them because by forgiving them - by faith; for I certainly don't feel like forgiving them - because, by forgiving them I get to obey God's Word on this, and by that, I get to thank Him for having forgiven me when I did not deserve it, I get to behave towards this person who has failed some standard of mine, as God for Christ sake behaved towards me.'
You don't say all that, rather, its just the overall sense of it 'I forgive them because that is what God has asked; that I forgive them just as He forgave me - when I least deserved it.'
In this, the image of Christ is witnessed by others, in us, unto His glory.
This is Grace Motivation - very different from the Law's Conditional Motivation that is Matthew's setting.
What if believing is an action?
I clicked on the "quote" box believing that is what I am to do should I wish to respond to someone's post, in this case; yours.
Prior to that, I sat where I am sitting as I am typing this response; believing the chair would hold me.
This notion that man is incapable of exercising the volition God gave Adam; choosing by it, to believe a thing, or not, is a misunderstanding of how belief works in general.
I choose to believe your notion is just that - your misunderstanding of "the gift" that God gave man in Adam - the ability to form beliefs about things that Adam might navigate his sense of reality through his God given ability to form beliefs about things - "this is a woman, this is a tree, we can eat from all trees but that one over there.."
Such was the case both, when "Adam walked with God" and when He and Eve fell, and believed "whoops, we're naked... hmmm, I know, we'll sew these fig leaves together..."
You're the one robbing God of His ability - and that by a belief you have chosen to hold to.
Fact is the ability to believe God or not, was given man in Adam...
This, given the glory God planned for Himself in His Son.
But seeing as this thread is about how forgiveness works, I forgive you your error. You're just exercising your God given ability in Adam - to form beliefs - as poor as the one have formed concerning this issue, is.
Seems to me you and yours go from the idea of one's being unable to believe unless first regenerated; to - believing is a work.
As if your Bible declares "Not of works, unless one is first regenerated that they might be able work..."
Seems to me yours is a basic misunderstanding.
Work or not - God gave man that ability in Adam. The ability is of God every bit as much as is the heart's ability to pump on its own...
Further, what do you do with the unregenerated Jew; back in the OT- nevertheless expected to believe the Law for righteousness?
And look at how many times the OT speaks of Israel having believed only to fall... only to get up and believe... only to fall... only to...
Yours appears similar to that of the "once saved, ever unsure" crowd in this - an uncertain principle.
I'm all ears; but you have yet to persuade this Believer to believe your belief about this belief issue.
beloved57
Well-known member
Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 , have you studied that word Can't?
The issue in Romans 6-8 is the issue of the Believer who walks after the flesh - in other words, in his own strength - being unable to produce fruit God will accept.
That is not the same issue as deciding to believe the gospel, not as foolishness, but as the truth.
Men are able to believe all sorts of truths, as well as all sorts of falsehoods, on their own - this, because God gave man the ability to form beliefs that man might be able to navigate his sense of time and space and a myriad of all sorts of things through the formation of beliefs - a God given ability given man in Adam.
Read Genesis 3 again - watch Eve form beliefs about this and that, as to that tree...
You look out at creation and the following takes place - you form beliefs about it - whether you are regenerated or not - Romans 1:
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Man is without excuse. Calvin was off.
God expects man to exercise his God given ability in Adam - the ability to form beliefs about things - God expects man to exercise that ability and form a belief based on the evidence presented to him in the Word - that God is real - man is "without excuse!"
Acts 17:
11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
1 Thessalonians 2:
13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
beloved57
Well-known member
danoah
Thats false ! The believer who has the Spirit in them, is not in the flesh Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The Spirit of God dwells in every believer, so those in the flesh in Vs 8 must be unbelievers ! And they cant please God ! Do you know what the word cant means ?
Thats false ! The believer who has the Spirit in them, is not in the flesh Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
The Spirit of God dwells in every believer, so those in the flesh in Vs 8 must be unbelievers ! And they cant please God ! Do you know what the word cant means ?
They are not in the flesh, hence; they should not walk in the flesh as to an attempt to please God in their own strength - back up to Romans 7. He begins there by relating that he is speaking to those that know the Law, 7:1.
In Romans 6-8 he is dealing with various issues of the flesh - dead to sin, Romans, 6, dead to the Law, Romans 7, dead to the flesh, Romans 8.
Note this same issue in Galatians 3:
1. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4. Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
In your misunderstanding, you're mixing apples with oranges, thus, you're question to me about one word - "can't" - contrast to all that that passage in Romans 8 is based on.
Every passage Calvin misunderstood bears your same practice - verses isolated and read into as to a sense foreign to them out of a failure to not allow the overall narrative its voice.
Note - Romans 8:
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
What does verse 8 mean? Lets ask the Apostle Paul - Galatians 5:
16. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
As had been the case under the Law, you cannot please God when you try to serve him in your own strength - he is talking to Believers.
The Spirit would never lead the Believer to attempt to serve God in his own strength, as had been the case under the Law, and as the Galatians were now being told by someone they had to put themselves under.
beloved57
Well-known member
The believer who has the Spirit of God in them, they are not in the flesh Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So those in Rom 8:8 in the flesh are the unregenerate, and they cannot please God !
The bottom line for Christians is to recognize that the ultimate disclosure of the divine on earth is found in Jesus of Nazareth.
We should be secure enough in our faith to realize our understanding of God will always be imperfect. A quick study of this very forum shows me a diverse number of different interpretations and theologies. We are all blessed and all forgiven. We have no excuse for shutting anyone out. All are welcome to help enlarge the pool of Christian meaning.
No. I've already been forgiven of ALL my sins.