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  • #16
    One writer wrote and I quote:

    Predestination is the Decree of God, whereby{according to the counsel of His own will} He foreordained some of mankind to eternal life, andrefused or passed by others for the praise of Hisglorious Mercy and Justice. Some are vessels ofmercy, others are vessels of wrath. “Hath not thepotter power over the clay, of the same lump tomake one vessel unto honour, and another untodishonour? What if God, willing to show His wrath,and to make His power known, endured with muchlong-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted todestruction; and that he might make known theriches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which Hehad afore prepared unto glory.” Rom.9:21-23.
    http://www.supralapsarian.com/pdf/ness-arminianism.pdf
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

      Amen Brother. I believe this writer accurately describes God's Sovereignty:

      How He deliberately predestinated those He hated Rom. 9:22 to destruction, eternal shame and everlasting contempt Dan. 12:2.

      While others that He Loved Rom. 9:23; John 3:16, according to His Eternal Purpose and Grace in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11; 2 Tim. 1:9, He predestinated to obtain Eternal Glory 2 Tim. 2:10 !
      My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever;
      when shall I be brought in to see His Face? - Psalm 42:2

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
        Do you believe in predestination?
        God decreed from before the foundation of the world that I would be able to think for myself.
        Where is the evidence for a global flood?
        E≈mc2
        "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

        "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
        -Bob B.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Nanja View Post
          Amen Brother. I believe this writer accurately describes God's Sovereignty:

          How He deliberately predestinated those He hated Rom. 9:22 to destruction, eternal shame and everlasting contempt Dan. 12:2.

          While others that He Loved Rom. 9:23; John 3:16, according to His Eternal Purpose and Grace in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11; 2 Tim. 1:9, He predestinated to obtain Eternal Glory 2 Tim. 2:10 !
          Amen Sister !
          "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
          preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
          called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
          a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

          Charles Spurgeon !

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Stripe View Post
            God decreed from before the foundation of the world that I would be able to think for myself.
            And when you think for yourself you are thinking only that which He decreed for you to think !
            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

            Charles Spurgeon !

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              And when you think for yourself you are thinking only that which He decreed for you to think !
              Did God decree from before the foundation of the earth that Jesus would come to die on the cross in the exact manner that the Bible describes?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                God decreed from before the foundation of the world that I would be able to think for myself.
                True.
                Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                And when you think for yourself you are thinking only that which He decreed for you to think !
                Also true.

                The only way to put these two things together coherently is Catholicism. Even though /in spite of our freedom, God still manifests His sovereignty over His creation, in precisely the way in which Catholicism teaches that He does:
                Spoiler
                306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures' co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God's greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.

                (Text 306 from) '[The Catechism of the Church].'*

                307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of subduing the earth and having dominion over it. God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings. They then fully become God's fellow workers and co-workers for his kingdom.

                Ibid.

                * - 'Securi' won't let me publish the link to the source at the moment.
                "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                @Nee_Nihilo

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                  True.
                  Also true.
                  Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                  E≈mc2
                  "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                  "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                  -Bob B.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                    Fair enough. Which parts of the answer did you find incongruent?
                    "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                    @Nee_Nihilo

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                      Fair enough. Which parts of the answer did you find incongruent?
                      The part where it says God is sovereign — which presumably means He knows everything that will happen — while also asserting that I have agency.

                      Those two concepts do not mesh. Either I'm choosing or God is; it cannot be both.
                      Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                      E≈mc2
                      "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                      "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                      -Bob B.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                        The part where it says God is sovereign — which presumably means He knows everything that will happen — while also asserting that I have agency.

                        Those two concepts do not mesh. Either I'm choosing or God is; it cannot be both.
                        Why not?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                          The part where it says God is sovereign — which presumably means He knows everything that will happen — while also asserting that I have agency.

                          Those two concepts do not mesh.
                          If A brings about B's circumstances, and if A knows B really well, then A can know what B will do, and B is still free at the same time.

                          The above is true unless you insist that, in the case that A has the power to manipulate the circumstances of B, that B is only free if and only if A chooses freely not to manipulate the circumstances of B.

                          That is a separate thesis from whether God's sovereignty and your agency can coexist. They can. So long as you can't prove that, "in the case that A has the power to manipulate the circumstances of B, that B is only free if and only if A chooses freely not to manipulate the circumstances of B."
                          Originally posted by Stripe View Post
                          Either I'm choosing or God is; it cannot be both.
                          God has the power to alter our circumstances. Our choice does not touch our circumstances, when their cause is beyond our control. For example an earthquake is beyond our control but it is our circumstance. Moving away from faults is not beyond our control. That is our choice. God doesn't coerce us to choose, but He does know us well enough that He knows what we'll do when faced with our circumstances, and He has the power to manipulate our circumstances.

                          God chooses your circumstances, and, you also choose what you'll do, think, say, etc., within them.

                          He knows you, and He knows what you're going to do, because both He knows you, and He is sovereign over your circumstances, and He reserves His right as the Maker to manipulate them, and again, because He knows you, combined with, that He has the power to manipulate your circumstances, and He does not waive the right to exercise that power, He knows what you're going to do.

                          As the Clavinist might say, He does this "According to His good pleasure," which does capture that whatever He's up to, we cannot resist effectively, which is something He's told us straightforwardly since time began. But Catholicism says that He is working a plan that is going to be the best possible outcome for everybody, even those who don't believe in Him, because those stubborn people freely choose to resist Him no matter what, and forcing them to submit would not be better than letting them have their way instead, so He does not force stubborn people to repent, they have to choose that on their own, choose to not be stubborn, to not resist, to not rebel, to not go the route of Lucifer anymore.

                          Your idea of human freedom requires God to waive His right as the Maker. Catholicism's does not.
                          "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

                          @Nee_Nihilo

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                            God has the power to alter our circumstances... God doesn't coerce us to choose, but He does know us well enough that He knows what we'll do when faced with our circumstances, and He has the power to manipulate our circumstances.

                            God chooses your circumstances, and, you also choose what you'll do, think, say, etc., within them.

                            He knows you, and He knows what you're going to do, because both He knows you, and He is sovereign over your circumstances, and He reserves His right as the Maker to manipulate them, and again, because He knows you, combined with, that He has the power to manipulate your circumstances, and He does not waive the right to exercise that power, He knows what you're going to do.
                            2 Corinthians 5:14 Hebrews 12:6 Coercion and force are difficult to distinguish, however. Certainly there is power behind God's movements and Romans 9:19 for your inspection...
                            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                            As the Clavinist might say, He does this "According to His good pleasure," which does capture that whatever He's up to, we cannot resist effectively, which is something He's told us straightforwardly since time began. But Catholicism says that He is working a plan that is going to be the best possible outcome for everybody, even those who don't believe in Him, because those stubborn people freely choose to resist Him no matter what, and forcing them to submit would not be better than letting them have their way instead, so He does not force stubborn people to repent, they have to choose that on their own, choose to not be stubborn, to not resist, to not rebel, to not go the route of Lucifer anymore.

                            Your idea of human freedom requires God to waive His right as the Maker. Catholicism's does not.
                            With the Cliff Clavin rub attached, even --> Romans 8:28
                            Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                            The only way to put these two things together coherently is Catholicism.
                            It'd 'appear' that 'Clavinism' also carries a decent answer (not to exclude your exclusive "Catholic exclusive" claim )
                            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                            ? Yep

                            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                              Why not?
                              Because if God has it all planned out, I don't have a say.

                              Why is this not obvious?

                              Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                              If A brings about B's circumstances, and if A knows B really well, then A can know what B will do, and B is still free at the same time.
                              Sure.

                              However, if A brings about B's circumstances, and if A knows B really well, then A tells B what B will do, B still has a choice.
                              Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                              E≈mc2
                              "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                              "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                              -Bob B.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Lon View Post
                                'Clavinism'
                                There are no E's in Clavan.
                                Where is the evidence for a global flood?
                                E≈mc2
                                "the best maths don't need no stinkin' numbers"

                                "The waters under the 'expanse' were under the crust."
                                -Bob B.

                                Comment

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