I wanna thank ya.
What is holding us back?
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I wanna thank ya.
Aimiel
Well-known member
So: you have perfect complete knowledge of The Lord?!? Sorry, but that isn't possible in a body of flesh. Flesh and blood cannot even comprehend The Lord. Please guess again.
Sorry, God retains His Mystery until He will reveal what's left of it. As He said:
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
We're NOT in those days yet. Looks like you need to do some studying. Your 'dispensation' heresy doesn't hold water.
Scripture doesn't say, "Special Knowledge," unless you have an ALL MYSTERIES REVEALED BIBLE, that I've never heard of. It says Knowledge. We won't need knowledge any more, because when we're perfected in glorified bodies: we will see Him Face-to-face.
I'm still not buying your 'dispensation' garbage. It just doesn't fit with The Holy Scriptures.
Aimiel
Well-known member
There is also such a thing as 'Poverty Preaching' which (IMHO) is ignorant. God wants us to prosper. I want to prosper. If you don't: that's fine with me.There is such a thing as prosperity preaching, but it's based on man's own selfish greed. Attempting to make God a partner in his greed is at best childish.
Not what I said.
I said that we have complete knowledge of the mystery that is Paul's Gospel, which is what he was talking about in 1 Corinthians.
Paul wasn't talking about all knowledge.
:blabla:
Straw man.
God has already revealed the mystery of the gospel of grace.
Or do you think that we should still be adding to the Bible, because that hasn't been fully revealed yet?
This is what happens when you take things out of context, and when you ignore portions of my argument.
Or, consider that there can be multiple mysteries in the Bible, and that when it says that when one of them is fully revealed, it doesn't automatically mean that all mysteries are revealed. A novel concept, I know...
Just because the word "mystery" is used multiple times in the Bible it doesn't necessarily mean that it's always referring to the same mystery.
The passage you quoted is from Revelation 10:7, and is part of a sentence which is mainly describing the actions of an angel (not the "Angel of the LORD" aka Jesus, but a created being).
In Revelation alone, the word "mystery" is used four times to refer to three different mysteries.
The "mystery of the seven stars" seen in Jesus' right hand (Revelation 1:20)
The "mystery of God" (Revelation 10:7)
The "mystery of Babylon the Great", the "mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her" (Revelation 17:5, 7)
Do you assume that because the word mystery is used that John is speaking of the same mystery?
Or do you rightly conclude that the prepositional phrases after the word "mystery" in each case specifies which mystery is being talked about (inherently implying that there is more than one mystery)?
Never said it did.
Remember when I asked you about paradigm shifts?
You never answered my question that I posed to you. Could you please answer it?
A man gets on a bus, and sees that all the seats are full, but sees that one man has gotten up and offered his seat. Was it a good thing for the second man to offer his seat to the first?
Straw man.
I never said "all mysteries." Neither did Paul.
I said that the mystery of the gospel of the grace of God was fully revealed, and that THAT is what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians.
We won't? We won't need any knowledge at all?
Or are you talking about knowledge of a specific thing (ie, "special knowledge")?
And?
No, You're not buying your preconceived notion of what dispensationalism is. I'm trying to correct your misconceptions.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Logically, he would have to be; for all prophesying to be done away with knowledge would have to be perfect: that is to say we would have to know all mysteries and neither has occurred yet.
Yes, but in order for ALL knowledge to be done away with ALL mystery must first be revealed; as I've stated several times, the Seventh Angel has not yet begun to sound. Mystery remains.
You may not know this but each of us are Living Epistles.
You're reaching. This is NOT what Scripture says, implies or even infers. This is what happens when you take things out of context, and when you ignore portions of my argument.
Presumption. I see that He said perfect. NOTHING we have is perfect (yet). When that which IS perfect is come, prophecy WILL cease. Knowledge will no longer be needed.
There will be knowing, since we will be LIKE Him, seeing Him Face-to-face and having perfect knowledge of Him Whom we see. Perfect knowledge. Prophecy will not be necessary when all of us can see the future that God sees. Perfect future-vision, as He has will be part of our perfection, when we're in glorified bodies.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Just to be clear: do you believe that there will be poor people on this earth when Jesus is on the throne during His Millennial Reign? I don't. I believe that money won't be necessary and that everyone under His rule will give without seeking payment, provide shelter, healing, goods, services; whatever their talent is will be put to best use for The Kingdom of Heaven, right here on earth.
Don't lose focus, Aimiel.
We're still talking about 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, in which Paul is speaking of sign gifts.
Hence why I said, "gift of knowledge" and "special knowledge," and why I challenged you on your claim that "knowledge" will pass away.
NEITHER I NOR PAUL said "ALL knowledge" will be done away with.
Nowhere is this stated.
Duh.
But Paul wasn't saying that mysteries would pass away in chapter 13. He's saying that sign gifts will pass away when "that which is perfect has come." "That which is perfect" ("that which is complete") refers to the ENTIRETY of Paul's gospel, and considering that Paul lived for another 12 years after He wrote 1 Corinthians, and was still learning things throughout the rest of his life. Paul wrote 2 Timothy between 64 and 66 AD, which is when he was martyred, so we can consider his gospel to be complete by that point.
I don't believe you. Prove it with scripture.
In what way? I just showed that there are at least three different mysteries in Revelation, even though the word "mystery" is used four times.
Using my own argument against me is fine, except when you become a hypocrite in doing so.
I said that you had ignored portions of my argument because you snipped out large sections of what I included in my post, yet you accuse me of ignoring portions of your argument, even though I responded to all of it.
Don't be a hypocrite, Aimiel.
What did I take out of context?
What part of your argument did I ignore?
Jesus isn't speaking in 1 Corinthians 13.
Not what it says.
Read the passage again, taking note of what Paul says in verse 9:
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. - 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians13:8-10&version=NKJV
Now read it again, this time with the relevant portions underlined (I'll leave out the verse numbers this time for formatting's sake)
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.For we know in part and we prophesy in part.But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. - 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians13:8-10&version=NKJV
Paul is saying that (at the time), they had gifts of knowledge, directly from God, "special knowledge," if you will, along with the gift of tongues and the gift of prophecy. But, Paul said, "when that which is perfect (complete) has come, then that which is in part (the sign gifts, including the gift of knowledge) will be done away."
Knowledge of God is not what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 13.
Again, Paul is talking about the sign gifts, not prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, in general.
This is equivocation. You're confusing "knowing the future" with "predictions, revealing truth".
Prophecy in the Bible simply means a prediction, or communicating and enforcing revealed truth.
| Strong's h5016 - Lexical: נְבוּאָה - Transliteration: nebuah - Part of Speech: Noun Feminine - Phonetic Spelling: neb-oo-aw' - Definition: prophecy. - Origin: From naba'; a prediction (spoken or written). - Usage: prophecy. - Translated as (count): and the prophecy (1), the prophecy (1), this prophecy (1). |
| Strong's g4394 - Lexical: προφητεία - Transliteration: prophéteia - Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine - Phonetic Spelling: prof-ay-ti'-ah - Definition: prophecy, prophesying; the gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth. - Origin: From prophetes ("prophecy"); prediction (scriptural or other). - Usage: prophecy, prophesying. - Translated as (count): prophecy (15), prophecies (2), of prophecy (1), prophesies (1). |
God doesn't know the future, nor will we be able to.
God CAN and has prophesied, through men and through His Son, things that would come to pass unless circumstances changed, and He can bring about things He wants to accomplish. But that in no way means that He "knows" the future.
Either way, this isn't the "knowledge" Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 13.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Jesus Christ said what he meant and he meant what he said.
John 14:12 is truth.
God word is truth and Jesus spoke the truth.
It is up to us to believe.
We can do them because Jesus Christ said that those who believe on him could. So who is believing on him and who is not?
I can do all things through Christ, not through my own wisdom or power but through Christ.
Funny you should say that
Let us read more closely what Jesus Christ said.
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Why don't we ask what works Jesus Christ did?
Did Jesus Christ "clear out the children’s hospital by instant healings,"????
No, he did not.
(Seems though that you would have a problem with that. Why would you have a problem with that? For that matter, if what you say,
is true then I ask, why didn't the whole world become followers of Jesus Christ in the time of his earthly ministry? For that matter, since Jesus Christ did do many healings, miracles, casting out devil spirits, and raising the dead to life again, why hasn't the entire world become Christian?)
What did he say?
The same works and greater.
Did Jesus Christ heal everyone in the world?
Did Jesus Christ raise all the dead people who had died from Adam and Eve from the dead?
Why not?
Why did he not heal everyone?
Why did he not raise all people from the dead?
Why only a select few?
Is that all that Jesus Christ did is heal children? What else did he do?
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oatmeal
Well-known member
You might want to read what I replied to his post.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Well, you be wrong and Guyver be right.
Those healings you speak of were for a particular time and a particular reason.
Just like the manna from heaven was for a particular time and a particular reason.
And you might want to read what Aimiel and I have been discussing.
glorydaz
Well-known member
oatmeal
Well-known member
Entertaining argument, but based on what?
Manna from heaven is the same thing as healing to you?
Wow.
So if a family member was ill and the doctors said there is nothing they can do, you would pray for manna from heaven?
Well, have you actually read John 14:12?
Why not?
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Who are the people who are going to do the works?
Who did Jesus Christ say would do the works?
The disciples in
??
Does Jesus Christ make any reference to any time frame?
Well, does he?
Well, does he?
No, he does not.
To whom is he referring to that would do those works?
a. not you and those who agree with you
b. He that believeth on me,
c. you and those who agree with you
d. those who believe on him, including me, but not you and those who believe on you.
I must conclude that you are not one of those who believe on him.
and that you believe that Christians do not and are not supposed to believe on him.
Is that true? You do not believe on him but rather on your opinions?
Christians are those who believe on him, but you do not?
Well, it is time you believed on him, see Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Where do you get the idea that a Christian who believes on him is supposed to go into hospitals and heal everyone or that Christians are supposed to go into any and all funeral homes and raise the dead?
Where did you get that idea?
Did you read that in scripture?
No, you did not.
Did Jesus heal everyone? Did he raise everyone from the dead?
What did he say to the father of the boy who needed help?
Mark 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Who is going to get the healing?
a. unbelievers?
b. those that believe?
True or false? all people who ever lived believe God?
True of false? All people who lived during Jesus' earthly ministry believed Jesus' words?
Who taught you such stuff?
oatmeal
Well-known member
Well, I am not interested because you are not one of those who believe on Jesus Christ.
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
clearly,, you do not desire to believe on him.
I get that. I don't always want to do what God wants me to do.
So what, that does not negate God's will nor the words of Jesus Christ who as a prophet for God spoke what God told him to speak
Oh, so you claim to know my heart, then, huh?
:blabla:
Go read my post, then reply to it.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I have.
Guess you didn't notice that He was speaking to the Disciples at the Last Supper. :think:
I studied it out for myself.
Try and read your Bible like it's a Book..not just a bunch of discombobulated verses stuck hither and yon.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Gee Oats, you're the one who doesn't believe. You consider our Lord Jesus Christ to be merely a man. You really shouldn't be lecturing believers, you should be listening to them.
And if you're lonesome, I understand, but you don't have to do this to get attention.
oatmeal
Well-known member
I do not know your heart at all except what you write.
Since your posts indicate that you do not believe on Jesus Christ as Jesus spoke of in John 14:12, what am I to believe but that you do not believe on him?
Either you believe on him or you don't.
oatmeal
Well-known member
So are you saying that not one thing Jesus said in his earthly ministry has no weight, no relation, no bearing on Christianity what so ever?
That whatever he said does not matter to us at all?
You might want to answer my previous questions to you and musterion instead of trying to sidestep them
Since you both agree and musterion fled when I asked questions he refuses to answer, maybe you have more honesty and courage and will answer them for him?
Last supper or not, he spoke them.
Sounds like you reject all that Jesus said as not having any bearing or validity on the present times?
John 14:6 Who is your way to the Father if it is not Jesus Christ? Or are you yet lost in your sins?
oatmeal
Well-known member
Gee Oats, you're the one who doesn't believe. You consider our Lord Jesus Christ to be merely a man. You really shouldn't be lecturing believers, you should be listening to them.
And if you're lonesome, I understand, but you don't have to do this to get attention.
You are great at trying to put words into my mouth..
Why do you reject the words of Jesus Christ who you say is God?
Where I have referred to Jesus being
You are a false accuser of the brethren to say that.
For me he is the way the truth and the life and no man (or woman) can come to the Father except by him
As the second Adam he corrected what the first Adam erred in.
That takes a man who is the lamb of God to do, not some mere man as you claim
If you are going to contribute to this thread, the least you could do is provide honest evidence instead lying
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