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  • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
    It is a reasonable alternative. I would omit "then" to make it as emphatic as the Calvinist would affirm. Those with ears to hear cannot not trust, assent, and know (elements of true faith) the Gospel. Why? The grace of the inward call of the Holy Spirit is efficacious.

    AMR
    Now I completely understand your prior sentence and even with your negative rephrasing... but I respectfully disagree with your explanation. I believe that it is possible to resist the Holy Spirit.

    Act 7:51-52 KJV
    (51) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
    (52) Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

    That particular passage comes to mind. Do you have anything that would indicate that the inward call of Holy Ghost is unable to be resisted?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
      ...That particular passage comes to mind.
      Per the actual surrounding context, the verses, Acts 7:51-52, are actually not speaking to individual salvific matters, but to the group, the Jews, who are said to resist the Spirit who reject him when He speaks in the prophets. They are covenant breakers using circumcision as a vail to cover a great many sins, including the persecution of the very fathers they would claim self-righteously.

      Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
      Do you have anything that would indicate that the inward call of Holy Ghost is unable to be resisted?
      A few come to mind:

      Eze. 36:26-27; Eph. 2:1,5,10; John 5:21; Col. 3:13; Matthew 13:10,11,16; John 6:37,44,45,64,65; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Acts 13:48; 2 Timothy 2:25, 26; Romans 8:30; Jude 1; Romans 9:16; 1 Corinthians 3:6,7; Philippians 2:12-13.

      Spoiler

      Ezekiel 36:26-27 (KJV)
      26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
      27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

      Ephesians 2:1 (KJV)

      1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

      Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
      5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

      Ephesians 2:10 (KJV)
      10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

      John 5:21 (KJV)
      21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

      Colossians 3:13 (KJV)
      13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

      Matthew 13:10-11 (KJV)
      10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
      11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

      Matthew 13:16 (KJV)

      16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

      John 6:37 (KJV)
      37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

      John 6:44-45 (KJV)
      44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
      45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

      John 6:64-65 (KJV)

      64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
      65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

      1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)

      14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

      Acts 13:48 (KJV)
      48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

      2 Timothy 2:25-26 (KJV)
      25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
      26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

      Romans 8:30 (KJV)

      30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

      Jude 1:1 (KJV)
      1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

      Romans 9:16 (KJV)
      16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

      1 Corinthians 3:6-7 (KJV)
      6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
      7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

      Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)

      12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
      13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


      If the inward call is resistible, perseverance of the saints is resistible. If one may resist the inward call why is it they cannot resist to the point of falling away once they have been born anew? Does God do something different to the saved that prevents falling away? What then of so-called libertarian free will? Is it some sort sort of Holy of Holies that cannot be touched? If God makes certain the perseverance of the believer, why then are we denying Him the prerogative to make equally certain those He has actually inwardly called will not not believe?

      God does decree that those who choose the wrong gate will do so. But that does not mean that God actively intervenes to cause them to make such a decision. Rather it means that God makes a conscious decision not to intervene to cause them to choose otherwise.

      God justly tells the reprobate:
      "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am also not going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

      God graciously tells the elect:
      "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

      After all, God need not intervene to bring about evil. We will do that all on our own. Good, however, does require intervention on God's part, for we are fallen and utterly sinful.

      AMR
      Last edited by Ask Mr. Religion; September 21st, 2018, 08:11 PM. Reason: formatting
      Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



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      Comment


      • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
        Do you have anything that would indicate that the inward call of Holy Ghost is unable to be resisted?
        Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
        A few come to mind:

        Eze. 36:26-27; Eph. 2:1,5,10; John 5:21; Col. 3:13; Matthew 13:10,11,16; John 6:37,44,45,64,65; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Acts 13:48; 2 Timothy 2:25, 26; Romans 8:30; Jude 1; Romans 9:16; 1 Corinthians 3:6,7; Philippians 2:12-13.

        Spoiler

        Ezekiel 36:26-27 (KJV)
        26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
        27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

        Ephesians 2:1 (KJV)

        1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

        Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
        5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

        Ephesians 2:10 (KJV)
        10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

        John 5:21 (KJV)
        21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

        Colossians 3:13 (KJV)
        13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

        Matthew 13:10-11 (KJV)
        10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
        11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

        Matthew 13:16 (KJV)

        16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

        John 6:37 (KJV)
        37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

        John 6:44-45 (KJV)
        44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
        45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

        John 6:64-65 (KJV)

        64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
        65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

        1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)

        14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

        Acts 13:48 (KJV)
        48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

        2 Timothy 2:25-26 (KJV)
        25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
        26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

        Romans 8:30 (KJV)

        30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

        Jude 1:1 (KJV)
        1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

        Romans 9:16 (KJV)
        16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

        1 Corinthians 3:6-7 (KJV)
        6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
        7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

        Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)

        12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
        13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
        Nineteen passages at one time is not conducive to a concise targeted reply. May I respond to a couple of my choice, and perhaps afterwards you could select a few at a time for discussion? For example, I'll choose the Ezekiel passage because you listed it first, and it also sounds more applicable.

        Ezekiel 36:26-27 (KJV)
        26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
        27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

        When God says "I will put my spirit within you" it is a sure and certain action. The results are less certain, as "ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" indicating that this will be their commandment and expected results, but the certainty depends on what they ultimately will do. Rather than leaving that unexplained and unsupported, I would point to the context of when this prophecy would be ultimately fulfilled. The very next chapter answers that question, as we are told that the whole body of Israel once perished shall be raised from the dead.

        Observe how the very next verse (from your reference) connect smoothly into the next chapter: how will they inherit this land again? God will raise them from their graves and place them therein:

        Ezekiel 36:26-28 KJV
        (26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
        (27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
        (28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

        Ezekiel 37:12-14 KJV
        (12) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
        (13) And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
        (14) And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

        So why do I bother to point out this connection? Because in the new heavens and the new earth of that resurrection of the dead, including the whole house of Israel, the call to salvation of those who will live in that land is not guaranteed.

        Isaiah 65:20 KJV
        (20) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

        Even with the new heart and new spirit placed within them, we are told that the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. That new heavens and new earth is an optimum environment, the devil is chained, and the Lord rules upon the earth... yet the Spirit can still be resisted, and the sinner shall still be accursed.

        If the inward call is resistible, perseverance of the saints is resistible. If one may resist the inward call why is it they cannot resist to the point of falling away once they have been born anew?
        Yes, if one is resistible then so is the other. If one may resist the inward call they can resist it to the point of falling away. That was not an unanswerable rhetorical question, "Perseverance of the Saints" is an error that is specifically warned against in scripture.

        Hebrews 6:4-8 KJV
        (4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
        (5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
        (6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
        (7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
        (8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

        If one has tasted of the Holy Spirit and then falls away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance, for that which bears thorns and briars shall be rejected and ultimately its end is to be burned.

        1 Corinthians 9:27 KJV
        (27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

        So I will turn that question around. If the Holy Ghost can be resisted by those who have already tasted of the Holy Ghost, why would it not be able to be resisted before that point?

        Does God do something different to the saved that prevents falling away? What then of so-called libertarian free will? Is it some sort sort of Holy of Holies that cannot be touched? If God makes certain the perseverance of the believer, why then are we denying Him the prerogative to make equally certain those He has actually inwardly called will not not believe?
        God does not make certain the perseverance of the individual believer. God himself is certain, he shall not fail us, and no other factor can separate us from the love of Christ, but we ourselves may fall away. We ourselves can separate ourselves from the love of Christ.

        God does decree that those who choose the wrong gate will do so. But that does not mean that God actively intervenes to cause them to make such a decision. Rather it means that God makes a conscious decision not to intervene to cause them to choose otherwise.

        God justly tells the reprobate:
        "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am also not going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

        God graciously tells the elect:
        "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."

        After all, God need not intervene to bring about evil. We will do that all on our own. Good, however, does require intervention on God's part, for we are fallen and utterly sinful.

        AMR
        It's the part in the red above I disagree with. Why would we be warned about turning away if such a thing could not happen?

        Mark 4:16-19 KJV
        (16) And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
        (17) And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
        (18) And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
        (19) And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


        These types of ground in the parable represent those that receive the word, they are they who have had ears to hear and receive the word yet they ultimately choke and perish.

        Revelation 2:4-5 KJV
        (4) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
        (5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

        Again, here are "if" conditions that already start from those who have received the word but are in danger falling away. He does not say that he will stop them from falling away, but rather that he will remove them if they do not repent.

        Ezekiel 18:26-27 KJV
        (26) When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
        (27) Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

        So how do we avoid falling away?
        We willingly place our will in subjection to God's will.
        Last edited by Rosenritter; September 23rd, 2018, 07:04 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
          It's the part in the red above I disagree with. Why would we be warned about turning away if such a thing could not happen?
          If one believes they can fall away from their salvation, then naturally no amount of discussion about the inward call being efficacious is going to matter. One must first get themselves aright as to the plain teachings of Scripture that true faith cannot be undone. Get the first principles correct and then the discussion of other matters will come in due course.

          The warnings in Scripture serve as but one of the means of God to guarantee our perseverance. Since God is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2), man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a man has been born-again he cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The elect shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. Those that are shown to have "fallen away" went out from us for they were never among us, professors of that which they did not truly possess. Our Lord's parable of the sower, wherein all the outward trappings of faith that never takes root, is didactic on this point.

          At this point, some would then ask, as you have, "Well, if the believer will persevere then why do the Scriptures contain admonitions and warning verses for salvation?" In reply I answer, God ordains the end but also the means to the end. One of those means of God for His glory is the perseverance of the believer in faith to the end. God effects His means of perseverance in the believer by admonishing them of the consequences of not persevering to the end. We must take these admonishments seriously. Why? Because these admonishments serve as a means to stir up the faithful.

          Just as the warning signs on the roads we travel serve as a means to stir up the faithful driver, the warnings in Scripture perform the same task. We ignore them at our peril. The true believer knows this to be true. That is why the true believer perseveres.

          Road sign analogies aside, perhaps an example from Scripture might help explain.

          Consider Paul about to be shipwrecked in Acts 27. We read therein that God had assured Paul that no one would lose their life in that shipwreck. Yet, despite this clear assurance from God, Paul, being stirred up, admonishes those on the ship that unless the persons trying to leave by the lifeboat remain on board, those on the ship would not be saved. Note here that the Apostle was previously assured of their salvation, yet Paul knew the means of their salvation, and his warning produced the desired result.

          Elsewhere, speaking under the superintended inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Peter tells us that those who are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" and "begotten again unto a lively hope" are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Peter 1:2-5).

          Indeed, God's almighty power preserves the true believer so that he or she receives that final and complete salvation that will be revealed at the eschaton. It can be no other way, for the work of salvation is God's work and God's work does not fail.

          AMR
          Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



          Do you confess?
          Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
          AMR's Randomata Blog
          Learn Reformed Doctrine
          I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
          Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
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          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
            If one believes they can fall away from their salvation, then naturally no amount of discussion about the inward call being efficacious is going to matter. One must first get themselves aright as to the plain teachings of Scripture that true faith cannot be undone. Get the first principles correct and then the discussion of other matters will come in due course.
            Let's agree that this is important, this is a foundational principle.

            The warnings in Scripture serve as but one of the means of God to guarantee our perseverance. Since God is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2), man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a man has been born-again he cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The elect shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. Those that are shown to have "fallen away" went out from us for they were never among us, professors of that which they did not truly possess. Our Lord's parable of the sower, wherein all the outward trappings of faith that never takes root, is didactic on this point.

            At this point, some would then ask, as you have, "Well, if the believer will persevere then why do the Scriptures contain admonitions and warning verses for salvation?" In reply I answer, God ordains the end but also the means to the end. One of those means of God for His glory is the perseverance of the believer in faith to the end. God effects His means of perseverance in the believer by admonishing them of the consequences of not persevering to the end. We must take these admonishments seriously. Why? Because these admonishments serve as a means to stir up the faithful.

            Just as the warning signs on the roads we travel serve as a means to stir up the faithful driver, the warnings in Scripture perform the same task. We ignore them at our peril. The true believer knows this to be true. That is why the true believer perseveres.
            Spoiler

            Road sign analogies aside, perhaps an example from Scripture might help explain.

            Consider Paul about to be shipwrecked in Acts 27. We read therein that God had assured Paul that no one would lose their life in that shipwreck. Yet, despite this clear assurance from God, Paul, being stirred up, admonishes those on the ship that unless the persons trying to leave by the lifeboat remain on board, those on the ship would not be saved. Note here that the Apostle was previously assured of their salvation, yet Paul knew the means of their salvation, and his warning produced the desired result.

            Elsewhere, speaking under the superintended inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Peter tells us that those who are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" and "begotten again unto a lively hope" are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Peter 1:2-5).

            Indeed, God's almighty power preserves the true believer so that he or she receives that final and complete salvation that will be revealed at the eschaton. It can be no other way, for the work of salvation is God's work and God's work does not fail.

            AMR
            The warnings are all there because they are guaranteed to be 100% effective? AMR, your logic here is reminding me of the Universalist protest that all of God's warnings that he will "burn up" and "destroy" the wicked both body and soul is merely a warning that shall never be invoked, that "Just because God says he can do something doesn't mean he will!" Is this the level to which you must resort?

            If what you say is correct, we do not ignore any warnings at our own peril because there would be no actual peril, and all of those warnings are merely scare stories, like the way one would scare their children to stay in bed at night by telling them stories about witches and trolls. @Ask Mr. Religion, your answer of "we ignore them at our peril" flies at odds and in contradiction to your own premise that the warnings shall never come to pass for those who were magically and mysteriously selected. If you are correct, there's no need to pay attention to ANY warnings, for what shall be shall be.

            On the other hand, if I am correct and God was sincere in giving these warnings, then it is absolutely vital that we pay attention and take heed, that we trust that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. This is not a joke or a scary bedtime story.

            Hebrews 10:26-31 KJV
            (26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
            (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
            (28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
            (29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
            (30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
            (31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

            Your explanation contradicts your very premise, and would have us take light of the warning of the Lord. Faith and humility dictates that we believe his warning is real, and that it could very well affect you or me or anyone that would count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing after being sanctified by his blood.

            You said it cannot happen. God said it could. Please consider deeply and prayerfully this thing.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
              A sentence with em dashes:
              "The elect are first quickened by God the Holy Spirit, such that they have ears to hear, and will then trust, assent, and know—the elements of true faith—the Gospel."

              The same sentence without em dashes:
              "The elect are first quickened by God the Holy Spirit, such that they have ears to hear, and will then trust, assent, and know the Gospel."

              Obviously something has been added in the first sentence, a parenthetical, but that parenthetical does not make the sentence mean something different. It only adds some information to amplify something.

              Note here that the sentence above could also have been written:
              Obviously something has been added in the first sentence—a parenthetical—but that parenthetical does not make the sentence mean something different. It only adds some information to amplify something.

              Em dashes are often used as parentheticals and are easily determined by context. Actual parentheses could have been used:
              "The elect are first quickened by God the Holy Spirit, such that they have ears to hear, and will then trust, assent, and know (the elements of true faith) the Gospel."

              In either instance, em dash, or actual parentheses ( ), it is clear that the elements of true faith comprise trust, assent, and know.

              A parenthetical should not destruct the sentence, so it can be overlooked to see if things hold together. Let's test that with the original sentence by omitting the em dash content:
              "The elect are first quickened by God the Holy Spirit, such that they have ears to hear, and will then trust, assent, and know the Gospel."

              They do. Q.E.D.

              However, the writer of the sentence wanted to note as an aside to the reader that trusting, assenting, and knowing are the three essentials of true faith. True faith in what? In the context before us, it was clearly true faith in the Gospel.

              The original sentence is properly constructed and there should be no confusion by anyone when reading it unless they are looking for goblins where none have been even hinted to be lurking about.

              Master the use of em dashes:
              http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/em-dash.html

              AMR
              Note "three ESSENTIALS of true faith".

              Essential for what?

              AMR believes that everything is predestined, including every syllable of a person's doctrinal beliefs. It stands to reason then that if God predestines someone to salvation that they would adopt the "three essentials of true faith". Otherwise, God would be saving people who did not have "true faith".

              Further, I happen to know what the "three essentials of true faith" are and his pedantic ramblings about parenthetical comments make no sense. The three essentials of true faith, according to Calvinism, are simply that one must (1)have the facts of the gospel corrent, (2)believe that they are actually true and that (3)they apply to specifically to you personally. That sounds innocuous enough and on it's face, it is but, as with all things Calvinist, they mean something difffent in the mind of a Calvinist than they would mean in anyone else's minds.
              The problem comes, primarily, in the first point because the facts of the gospel are quite different depending upon which Calvinist you're talking too. Most people who call themselves Calvinist (i.e. pew sitting lay people who aren't theologians) get the facts of the gospel right, almost intuitively. Things like the fact that God exists, that Jesus is the Son of God; that He became a man and died as an atonement for sin; that He was raised from the dead; etc. These things and a few other things are somewhat obvious and included in the beliefs of every Christian, Calvinist or otherwise. There are those Calvinists, however, like beloved57, Nanja and Nang, to name a few, who have so completely ingested the Calvinist cool-aid that they believe, essentially, that the doctrine of predestination and the TULIP doctrines are included in the essential facts of the gospel. They may or may not say so outright but they will tell you outright that if you believe that someone who God died for could perish (i.e. if they reject the offer of salvation) then you are preaching a false gospel.

              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              Its a sad case when one parading as a gospel preacher preaches that the death and blood of Christ alone doesnt save them He shed it for, as you do.
              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              Its no gospel of Christ to teach sinners He died to save perish any way !
              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              The scripture is true but you still dont believe that Christ Blood saved them He shed it for. That is unbelief.

              And so, it is clear that there is, in fact, an equivalence drawn between the "elements of true faith" and "the gospel", just as a simple reading of AMR original comment would seem to suggest. As such, I'll repeat what I said when AMR first made this comment....

              It is when a Calvinist says something like this...

              "The elect are first quickened by God the Holy Spirit, such that they have ears to hear, and will then trust, assent, and know—the elements of true faith—the Gospel." - AMR post 578

              ...that I get nervous about whether they've believed the gospel or not. AMR says here that "the gospel" and "the elements of true faith" are the same thing. Someone should ask him what exactly is he referring too when he says "the elements of true faith". If he bothers to give a straight answer, then nearly anyone could make a judgment about whether he is or is not saved.


              Resting in Him,
              Clete
              Last edited by Clete; September 24th, 2018, 07:06 AM.
              sigpic
              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                If one believes they can fall away from their salvation, then naturally no amount of discussion about the inward call being efficacious is going to matter. One must first get themselves aright as to the plain teachings of Scripture that true faith cannot be undone. Get the first principles correct and then the discussion of other matters will come in due course.

                The warnings in Scripture serve as but one of the means of God to guarantee our perseverance. Since God is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2), man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a man has been born-again he cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The elect shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. Those that are shown to have "fallen away" went out from us for they were never among us, professors of that which they did not truly possess. Our Lord's parable of the sower, wherein all the outward trappings of faith that never takes root, is didactic on this point.

                At this point, some would then ask, as you have, "Well, if the believer will persevere then why do the Scriptures contain admonitions and warning verses for salvation?" In reply I answer, God ordains the end but also the means to the end. One of those means of God for His glory is the perseverance of the believer in faith to the end. God effects His means of perseverance in the believer by admonishing them of the consequences of not persevering to the end. We must take these admonishments seriously. Why? Because these admonishments serve as a means to stir up the faithful.
                Spoiler

                Just as the warning signs on the roads we travel serve as a means to stir up the faithful driver, the warnings in Scripture perform the same task. We ignore them at our peril. The true believer knows this to be true. That is why the true believer perseveres.

                Road sign analogies aside, perhaps an example from Scripture might help explain.

                Consider Paul about to be shipwrecked in Acts 27. We read therein that God had assured Paul that no one would lose their life in that shipwreck. Yet, despite this clear assurance from God, Paul, being stirred up, admonishes those on the ship that unless the persons trying to leave by the lifeboat remain on board, those on the ship would not be saved. Note here that the Apostle was previously assured of their salvation, yet Paul knew the means of their salvation, and his warning produced the desired result.

                Elsewhere, speaking under the superintended inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Peter tells us that those who are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" and "begotten again unto a lively hope" are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Peter 1:2-5).

                Indeed, God's almighty power preserves the true believer so that he or she receives that final and complete salvation that will be revealed at the eschaton. It can be no other way, for the work of salvation is God's work and God's work does not fail.

                AMR
                Here's the short form why I was amazed at this answer. Essentially, you said that God has decreed the Calvinist shall be saved by acting in faith and belief as if he could fall away and thus obeying the warnings.

                What you actually said was that for the Calvinist saint to persevere he must act as if his perseverance is conditional.
                Last edited by Rosenritter; September 24th, 2018, 12:26 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                  Here's the short form why I was amazed at this answer. Essentially, you said that God has decreed the Calvinist shall be saved by acting in faith and belief as if he could fall away and thus obeying the warnings.

                  What you actually said was that for the Calvinist saint to persevere he must act as is his perseverance is conditional.
                  BRILLIANT!


                  The Calvinist mantra is, "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

                  The problem is that they have to live in the reality which they've rejected.
                  sigpic
                  "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                    Here's the short form why I was amazed at this answer. Essentially, you said that God has decreed the Calvinist shall be saved by acting in faith and belief as if he could fall away and thus obeying the warnings.

                    What you actually said was that for the Calvinist saint to persevere he must act as is his perseverance is conditional.
                    The Covenant of Grace is not conditioned in any antecedent manner on on any prior fulfillments, otherwise we could not have any such doctrine as "unconditional election." Election is not based on anything foreseen or preexisting in the creature; but it is the very thing that vouchsafes a personal and everlasting salvation to an elect person. It is an absolute and unconditional gratuity. This is the "chosen in Christ" aspect of an individual's redemption, and in that eternal (but not historical) perspective, men are in the Covenant of Grace apart from conditions of any kind.

                    The Covenant of Grace may be said to have "conditions," in the qualified sense of consequent conditions, conditions that are the necessary consequences or results of specific divine activity on behalf of God's elect. If such things as true faith, repentance, love for God and Christ, etc. are not present in the least degree (I am not even saying they must be visible or detectable traits); it is not possible to speak of such a person with respect to eternity. We might be speaking of a reprobate, or we might be speaking of a person who is elect but not converted. Nothing of his present (or future!) "condition" has impacted the divine decree concerning him. But in the nature of the case for an elect person, the divine determination for his everlasting felicity must eventually produce blessed conditions in keeping with election.

                    I would also say, with respect to history: faith, repentance, love, etc. considered under any visible manner (not excluding participation in sacrament and church-life), demands a kind of acknowledgement from the rest of us who are only capable of reckoning with whatever "conditions" are set before us to observe. In every case, our judgment is purely provisional. And the reason is obvious: because at best we are speaking of consequent conditions, and our recognition of them accurately is imperfect.

                    More on conditions:
                    Spoiler

                    When condition is improperly taken, and signifies no more than what particular duties as performed must, in the order of nature, precede the enjoyment of particular promised benefits, many things may be called conditions; for holiness must precede eternal happiness…. True repentance of sin must precede God’s fatherly pardon of it… And as faith is particularly required in the public dispensation of this covenant by the gospel…and is the appointed instrument by which God communicates, and we receive the blessings of it… it is more frequently called the condition of it, by divines: and indeed might be called a condition of connection in it. But when condition is taken properly for that which, when fulfilled, give gives the covenanters for right to claim the promised reward, nothing but the finished righteousness of Jesus Christ, by which all the demands of the broken covenant of works are fully satisfied, can be allowed as the condition of this covenant. 1. Christ took upon himself the whole death of his elect world,—all that of which the payment secures them from eternal death…and entitles them to eternal life…—nothing can remain there for to be fulfilled by them, as the proper condition of this covenant….


                    … 6. As our faith, repentance, and new obedience, by no means, answer the demands of the broken law, so, instead of being proper conditions of this covenant of grace, they are all in estimable benefits promised in it, upon the footing of its fulfilled condition…


                    —John Brown of Haddington, Systematic Theology: A Compendious View of Natural And Revealed Religion (repr. Grand Rapids: Reformation Heritage Books, 2015), 235, 235.


                    Worth a read
                    https://heidelblog.net/2015/09/resou...nant-of-grace/

                    Please go back and interact with the discussion of Paul in Acts I provided to demonstrate my position that the warnings are to provoke the faithful such that they will indeed persevere. By your assertion, Paul's actions are insincere and unneeded actions, for after all, He was assured by God none will perish. So why did Paul proceed as he did sounding the alarm to those on the ship? Given your view, why would Paul even bother?

                    What God knows and what we know are not the same thing in the same way in the same circumstances. God's knowledge is univocal, ours equivocal. That God has ordained that not one of His chosen will be lost to Him does not abrogate what we ought to do. In fact, God's ordination assumes we will do what we ought to do, for it is God who is the author and finisher of our faith. How does God do the authoring and finishing of our faith? God does it by means that intersect with our own volitional will.

                    If you are going to assume that since God has predestined His chosen unto salvation and therefore those so predestined need only idly bide their time until zapped into the Kingdom, you are assuming what is not taught in Scripture. You are adopting a caricature of Reformed doctrine that only signals a lack of understanding of these doctrines.

                    God uses ordained means, such as the promiscuous preaching of the Good News, to bring His children into the Kingdom. Like many anti-Calvinists, you are assuming our volitional wills have no part in the ordination of God. Yet, as I have explained too often, our very willing in all contingencies presented before us is included in God's ordination.

                    Per His providence, God sees to it that as a believer I will do what I ought to do per the liberty of spontaneity—that is, the choosing according to my greatest inclinations when I so choose—God has granted me. God is not doing the choosing for me. I am doing it. What ought I to do? What God has revealed in special revelation, the Bible, which contains many warnings and fearful sayings that I will heed, with the help of the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit, as a believer being kept by God.

                    Will I sometimes fail to do what I ought to do? Why yes I will and have. See especially section 3 in the spoiler below:

                    Spoiler

                    The teachings of the perseverance of the saints in Scripture is succinctly described in the Westminster Confession of Faith as follows:

                    Chapter XVII - Of the Perseverance of the Saints.
                    1. They, whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. (Phil. 1:6, 2 Pet. 1:10, 1 John 3:9, 1 Pet. 1:5,9)

                    2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; (2 Tim. 2:18-19, Jer. 31:3) upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, (Heb. 10:10, 14, Heb. 13:20-21, Heb. 9:12-15, Rom. 8:33-39, John 17:11, 24, Luke 22:32, Heb. 7:25) the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, (John 14:16-17, 1 John 2:27, 1 John 3:9) and the nature of the covenant of grace: (Jer. 32:40) from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. (John 10:28, 2 Thess. 3:3, 1 John 2:19)

                    3. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; (Matt. 26:70, 72, 74) and, for a time, continue therein: (Ps. 51 title, Ps. 51:1) whereby they incur God’s displeasure, (Isa. 64:5, 7, 9, 2 Sam. 11:27) and grieve His Holy Spirit, (Eph. 4:30) come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, (Ps. 51:8, 10, 12, Rev. 2:4, Cant. 5:2-4, 6) have their hearts hardened, (Isa. 63:17, Mark 6:52, Mark 16:14) and their consciences wounded; (Ps. 32:3-4, Ps. 51:8) hurt and scandalize others, (2 Sam. 12:14) and bring temporal judgments upon themselves. (Ps. 89:31-32, 1 Cor. 11:32)


                    But what of the non-believer? God ordains to leave them in their dire state, wherein they only sin, for that is what they desire and therefore volitionally will to do. God does not set His preference upon them. Why must He be obligated to do so? After all they are born in sin (in Adam) and their ongoing sin confirms the state of their birth. God is only obliged to render retributive justice upon them, not His mercy of efficacious grace for those in Adam He has so chosen unto salvation in Christ.

                    AMR
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                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                      Here's the short form why I was amazed at this answer. Essentially, you said that God has decreed the Calvinist shall be saved by acting in faith and belief as if he could fall away and thus obeying the warnings.

                      What you actually said was that for the Calvinist saint to persevere he must act as is his perseverance is conditional.
                      Well stated, Rosie!

                      And if he must act as if his perseverance is conditional, and he tells others that they DON'T need to act that way, though they really do, the value of the perseverance clause is highly questionable, either in practice or in speech.

                      Comment


                      • If one looks at the teachings of Calvinism, one must go away thinking that God, (Who desires to be worshipped, loved and obeyed.) has ascertained that no one will come to Him unless they are FORCED (By His Sovereign Will) to be chosen by election to be saved. Furthermore, God has chosen to reject the rest of humanity and damn them to Hell (Hades) temporarily, until 'The Final Judgement' after which, they will be cast into 'The Lake of Fire' for eternity.

                        According to Calvinism, even if the 'Non-Elect' hear the Gospel, they will be BLOCKED from accepting it. These kinds of 'false doctrine' change 'The Character of the God of the Bible' and make Him seem insecure and unfair. Sure, God is justified in sending all of humanity to 'The Lake of Fire' however, He decided to send His Son to earth and shed His blood on the cross for the sins of ALL humanity. However, ONLY those who hear the Gospel and place their faith, in Christ and His death and resurrection will benefit from Christ's sacrifice.

                        I believe God desires that 'all of humanity' will choose, by faith, the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. (1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

                        Calvinism, I believe, not only changes the character of the God of the Bible, they change the preaching/teaching of the Apostle Paul's Gospel which he received from God.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                          Please go back and interact with the discussion of Paul in Acts I provided to demonstrate my position that the warnings are to provoke the faithful such that they will indeed persevere. By your assertion, Paul's actions are insincere and unneeded actions, for after all, He was assured by God none will perish. So why did Paul proceed as he did sounding the alarm to those on the ship? Given your view, why would Paul even bother?
                          Act 27:22-31 KJV
                          (22) And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
                          (23) For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
                          (24) Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
                          (25) Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
                          (26) Howbeit we must be cast upon a certain island.
                          (27) But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country;
                          (28) And sounded, and found it twenty fathoms: and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found it fifteen fathoms.
                          (29) Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day.
                          (30) And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship,
                          (31) Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

                          AMR, how thoroughly did you read that passage? Do you understand the view you claim to oppose? God gave that there shall be no loss of life,which is the will and the command, not a guaranteed result, and certainly not if they disobey the conditions set forth.

                          What are the stated conditions?

                          1. God has given them all them that sail with thee.
                          2. Except they abide in the ship, they cannot be saved.

                          There was only safety for those as they stayed with Paul. Scripture does not tell us every word that is spoken, but it does tell us these were conditions and there is no need to assume that Paul was acting out of order. However, I don't need a presumed hind-sight backwards fatalism view to make this work. It works perfectly well under the normal view.

                          And this is the point: if one that presumes to believe in Unconditional Election, but they are required to behave as if all the warnings and results are truly Conditional in nature, it demonstrates that the belief is not actually followed in practice. Essentially it is a worthless doctrine and by its nature impossible to prove or disprove, since apparently every scriptural warning about falling away must be viewed as must the element for ensuring that those who cannot fall away actually do not, but without the warnings they would?
                          Last edited by Rosenritter; September 25th, 2018, 09:45 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
                            If one looks at the teachings of Calvinism, one must go away thinking that God, (Who desires to be worshipped, loved and obeyed.) has ascertained that no one will come to Him unless they are FORCED (By His Sovereign Will) to be chosen by election to be saved. Furthermore, God has chosen to reject the rest of humanity and damn them to Hell (Hades) temporarily, until 'The Final Judgement' after which, they will be cast into 'The Lake of Fire' for eternity.

                            According to Calvinism, even if the 'Non-Elect' hear the Gospel, they will be BLOCKED from accepting it. These kinds of 'false doctrine' change 'The Character of the God of the Bible' and make Him seem insecure and unfair. Sure, God is justified in sending all of humanity to 'The Lake of Fire' however, He decided to send His Son to earth and shed His blood on the cross for the sins of ALL humanity. However, ONLY those who hear the Gospel and place their faith, in Christ and His death and resurrection will benefit from Christ's sacrifice.

                            I believe God desires that 'all of humanity' will choose, by faith, the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. (1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

                            Calvinism, I believe, not only changes the character of the God of the Bible, they change the preaching/teaching of the Apostle Paul's Gospel which he received from God.
                            The observation that Calvinist doctrine renders God to be unjust is absolutely right and true!

                            Have you ever wondered why the Calvinist cannot see it?

                            If you repeated this to a Calvinist 10,000 times, it wouldn't penetrate even once. My theory as to why has to do with their willingness to have alternate definitions for what would otherwise be easily understood terms. The words 'justice', 'righteous', 'fairness', etc simply has no meaning when applied to God in the Calvinist system. In reality they mean their opposites. Arbitrary reward and punishment is justice, creating evil people for the sake of creating evil people is rightousness, predestinating people to Hell for no reason at all, is fairness. And they think that simply rejecting such accusations and verbally insisting that "God is just!" is accepted as sufficient in their minds. The Westminster Confession states the following in Chapter III section I...
                            I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

                            Here we have a statement that proclaims that God both is and is not the author of sin. The statement implies that God is the author of sin and knowing that this is the implication, the opposite claim is made outright. You can search high and low for an actual rational argument attempting to reconcile these contradictory claims but you'll be hard pressed to find one. The closest you're likely to get is a quotation of some bible verses - some that they take to mean that God predestined everything and others that, in fact, do say that God doesn't do evil. In other words, they believe that the bible teaches both and so they accept both - period. There is no real attempt made to explain it. They just accept it and that's it. They call it an "antinomy" and consider the matter closed. AMR's post #498 on this thread is a great example of an argument but it is not a rational one. At bottom it is still just a Calvinist making the claim that both doctrines are true.

                            The problem, of course, is that the Bible doesn't teach both and if it did, it would be proof that the Bible was false. (The fact that Calvinism does teach both is proof that Calvinism is false.) What is actually happening is that the Calvinists is not getting his doctrine from Scripture but brings his doctrine with him and interprets the Bible in light of his doctrine. In fact, they will occasionally even admit that no propper reading of the Bible can be done in any other way! (e.g. Augustine) This, they say, is in keeping with the idea that people cannot come to God in faith (i.e. understand the Bible) until after they've been regenerated. This, of course, implies that only Calvinists are regerate and therefore only Calvinists believe the real gospel and therefore only Calvinists are really saved. Rarely will you find a Calvinist willing to state this outright but we have a few here on TOL.

                            So, we can see from their own writings, even right here on TOL, that all of this is true but if any of them were to read this post, they would all universally and immediately reject it as flatly false and ridiculous. In fact, they are quite completely convinced and passionately insist that they use the most stictly objective and rationally consistent hermanuitics of any Chistian sect in existence. They literally cannot even conceive of how it is possible that anyone could accuse them of bringing their doctrine to the Bible rather than taking their doctrine from it and yet that is precisely what they do.

                            One of my favorite examples of them doing this is from an article by R.C Sproul. This article is explicitly about the objective interpretation and understanding of Scripture. In it he writes the following...
                            Closely related to this point is the principle that the implicit must be interpreted by the explicit, rather than the explicit interpreted by the implicit. This particular rule of interpretation is violated constantly. For example, we read in John 3:16 that “whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life,” and many of us conclude that since the Bible teaches that anyone who believes shall be saved, it therefore implies that anyone can, without the prior regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, exercise belief. That is, since the call to believe is given to everyone, it implies that everyone has the natural ability to fulfill the call. Yet the same gospel writer has Jesus explaining to us three chapters later that no one can come to Jesus unless it is given to him of the Father (6:65). That is, our moral ability to come to Christ is explicitly and specifically taught to be lacking apart from the sovereign grace of God. Therefore, all of the implications that suggest otherwise must be subsumed under the explicit teaching, rather than forcing the explicit teaching into conformity to implications that we draw from the text. - R.C. Sproul "Knowing Scripture"

                            Mr. Sproul and every other Calvinist that reads this paragraph is entirely blind to the fact that it is their doctrine that tells them which passages are implicit and which are explicit and they REFUSE to consider that they could possibly have it backward or that there is the slightest possibility that it is their paradigm which makes one passage implicit and another explicit (or perhaps both explicit for that matter).

                            So, where do they make their initial mistake? Where is the crossroads where they make their first wrong turn?
                            Well, in an importance sense, their mistake is in thinking that they've started with the Bible and that they are capable of reading the Bible objectively or that it was ever intended to be read objectively or that the objective reading of the Bible (or anything else) is even possible to do in the first place. It isn't and they don't because they can't - no one can.

                            Atheists make a similar mistake when attempting to understand the world with logic as their first principle. Logic cannot be a first principle in the way atheist attempt to make it so because you cannot explain the existence of logic without using logic to do it which is question begging (i.e. not logical)! They have placed logic in the place where God should be and by the same token, the Calvinist (and most Christians of any flavor) has likewise put the Bible where God should be. The Bible is NOT the foundation of correct doctrine - God is!

                            "But our understanding of God is doctrine!", you might be thinking. Quite so! Theologians call it "theology proper" and there is loads of information about who God is in the pages of Scripture but I submit that our understand of God is it not derived from the Bible but rather confirmed and completed by it. The existence of God is intuitively understood, as evidenced by the fact that no more than 16% of the world's population is "religiously unaffiliated" never mind actually atheistic. Further, we can know rationally that God is living, personal and rational because we are those things and the effect cannot be greater than the cause. Likewise, we can know that God is righteous and just because these concepts are understood to be right and good by everyone, including both good and bad people. Punish an atheist for a crime he did not commit and he will object because he knows, both intuitively and rationally, that it is unjust but no one objects to the punishment of a murderer. Sleep with a drug dealer's wife and you and she will probably both get shot because even the most hardened criminal understands that there is a line there that ought not be crossed, even by him! The imbecilic college professor that claims that "All private property is theft!" would be first in line to press charges against someone who stole their Prius. The anarchists who thinks that people ought to be permitted to do whatever they want, wouldn't like it much if I punched them in the face. And even the most naive amoung us knows that someone who sets a person's house on fire so that they can then rescue the occupants from the flames is an arsonist, not a hero.

                            Thus we can know that God exist and that He is alive, that He is personal, that He is relational, that He is rational, that He is righteous and that He is just. And that is not a complete list!

                            It is upon this foundation that ALL UNDERSTANDING, including but not limited to the understanding of Scripture, is to be based! Any thought in your head that renders God as impersonal, irrational, unrighteous or unjust, whether implicitly or explicitly, can be immediately rejected as false whether you got it from the Bible or not! In fact, all understanding of any truth by anyone about anything is based on this foundation! To reject it, as atheists do, or attempt to modify/substitute it, as Calvinist do, is to guarantee error in one's worldview. More than that, it is to invite erorr that you cannot detect and that you will refuse to acknowledge much less correct.



                            There is probably 10,000 more words I have to say on this topic but I am out of time. For a more detailed discussion of this and related topics read Does God Exist?, Openness Theology - Does God Know Your Entire Future? - Battle Royale X and Our Moral God

                            Resting in Him,
                            Clete
                            Last edited by Clete; September 25th, 2018, 09:06 AM.
                            sigpic
                            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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                            • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                              There was only safety for those as they stayed with Paul. Scripture does not tell us every word that is spoken, but it does tell us these were conditions and there is no need to assume that Paul was acting out of order. However, I don't need a presumed high-sight backwards fatalism view to make this work. It works perfectly well under the normal view.
                              It is plain from the account that none aboard the ship were to be lost, for God so stated. Paul knew this for he was told this. Per your view, Paul need not have heeded the warnings and made them plain to the men aboard the ship and all would have been well. Rather, the warnings served to stir up Paul such that the ordination of God that none would be lost on the ship, is made manifest. This is how what God ordains is actualized: by free, necessary or contingent, means.

                              Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                              And this is the point: if one that presumes to believe in Unconditional Election, but they are required to behave as if all the warnings and results are truly Conditional in nature, it demonstrates that the belief is not actually followed in practice. Essentially it is a worthless doctrine and by its nature impossible to prove or disprove, since apparently every scriptural warning about falling away must be viewed as must the element for ensuring that those who cannot fall away actually do not, but without the warnings they would?
                              I suspect you did not take due care to review my provided content related to "conditions" in my earlier post. If you did, I see no interaction with them at all, merely you repeating what you initially asserted. My provided content answers your complaints and treats what may and may not be said when the word "condition" is being used in this context.

                              Using hypotheticals, as in "but without the warnings they would not" is not proper. We have the revealed word of God before us. Speculating about what God's secret will (Deut. 29:29) would be, absent what He has revealed, is a fool's errand. When God shuts His mouth, so should we.

                              AMR
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                              • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                                God justly tells the reprobate:
                                "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am also not going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."
                                God says that to all men, not just the wicked.

                                Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                                God graciously tells the elect:
                                "I am not going to force you to ultimately make the wrong choice; I am going to prevent you from ultimately making the wrong choice."
                                False. God has never, ever, ever promised that He would prevent man from making the wrong choices.


                                Ezekiel 18:26-28
                                26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
                                27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
                                28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

                                Learn to read what is written.

                                _____
                                The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
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