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The earth is flat and we never went to the moon--Part II

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  • Originally posted by DFT_Dave View Post
    I don't see us disagreeing on time and space accept that you call them only "concepts" but then affirm their reality.
    Be specific. Where have I done such a thing?

    I do not affirm their reality (ontologically). They exist as ideas, nothing more.

    I think you're in error in your use of the word concept. But other than that we are clearly both open theists.
    How am I in error? What else are they besides concepts? They do not exist outside of a thinking mind.

    As far as gravity I don't think you understand my problem with it, but maybe I am wrong about this so help me understand the basics of gravity.

    What do you mean when you say gravity is weak? Weak in comparison to what?

    --Dave
    Gravity is weak in comparison to nearly anything you care to think of. It is by far the weekest of the natural forces. If gravity were .01% (that's 1 percent of 1 percent) of the electromagnetic force, for example, everything would indeed be smashed to the ground and quite unable to move. In fact, the Earth would be squashed down to next to nothing in terms of volume and the universe just simply wouldn't work or even exist for that matter.

    To be more exact, the elctromagnetic force is 1040 times stronger than gravity. So written out long hand...

    Force of Gravity = Electromagnetic Force / 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000

    1040 is a REALLY big number! If you wanted to calculate the number of molecules of water in all the oceans on the Earth, for example, you'd come up with numbers in this neighborhood. I think the number of water molecules in the oceans is something like 1047 which is actually ten million times bigger but you get the idea. It's an enormous number which means Gravity is very nearly nothing in comparison to the electromagnetic force.

    Gravity is a super duper weak force by comparison even to your own muscles. The muscles in your body are strong enough to overcome the force of all 6 × 1024 kilograms of the Earth pulling on you, which allows you to do things like stand, walk, run and jump, lift things off the ground and even scratch your nose.

    Clete
    sigpic
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Yorzhik View Post
      Clete called them real concepts. Think of it better like this: it isn't that time exists that keeps everything from happening at once - it is that in reality not everything happens at once and we call the antithesis of everything not happening at once "time". It's just a name describing reality. That's the definition of a concept.

      You described your problem with it. Perhaps you were not clear when you said, "If Gravity pulls every atom, molecule, particle "downward" then why on earth would everything not be immovably stuck to the surface of the earth?"

      And Clete already answered your description of the problem. You need to take what he said, and consider it so you can explain further what your problem with gravity is.

      I think electromagnetic force is one of them. There is another force that holds atoms together. Both are a great deal stronger than gravity. Even so, they are in perfect balance with gravity in such a way as to support an existing universe. That's how God designed it - so He didn't need to enact a constant miracle on the whole universe in order for it to function at least for a while.
      I don't see any disagreement between us about the reality of time and space. They are realities for us and God.

      The question I have about gravity is, what is it pulling that is weak vs what is gravity not pulling because it's not weak?

      --Dave
      www.dynamicfreetheism.com
      The only view of ultimate reality that provides
      rational answers to the questions of human origin, destiny, and dignity.
      The only view that proves the existence and explains
      the nature of God.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Clete View Post
        Be specific. Where have I done such a thing?

        I do not affirm their reality (ontologically). They exist as ideas, nothing more.


        How am I in error? What else are they besides concepts? They do not exist outside of a thinking mind.


        Gravity is weak in comparison to nearly anything you care to think of. It is by far the weekest of the natural forces. If gravity were .01% (that's 1 percent of 1 percent) of the electromagnetic force, for example, everything would indeed be smashed to the ground and quite unable to move. In fact, the Earth would be squashed down to next to nothing in terms of volume and the universe just simply wouldn't work or even exist for that matter.

        To be more exact, the elctromagnetic force is 1040 times stronger than gravity. So written out long hand...

        Force of Gravity = Electromagnetic Force / 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000

        1040 is a REALLY big number! If you wanted to calculate the number of molecules of water in all the oceans on the Earth, for example, you'd come up with numbers in this neighborhood. I think the number of water molecules in the oceans is something like 1047 which is actually ten million times bigger but you get the idea. It's an enormous number which means Gravity is very nearly nothing in comparison to the electromagnetic force.

        Gravity is a super duper weak force by comparison even to your own muscles. The muscles in your body are strong enough to overcome the force of all 6 × 1024 kilograms of the Earth pulling on you, which allows you to do things like stand, walk, run and jump, lift things off the ground and even scratch your nose.

        Clete
        How can gravity be weak if it's holding the moon in it's orbit around the earth and the earth's orbit around the sun and our entire atmosphere.

        --Dave
        www.dynamicfreetheism.com
        The only view of ultimate reality that provides
        rational answers to the questions of human origin, destiny, and dignity.
        The only view that proves the existence and explains
        the nature of God.

        Comment


        • For either “side”, it’s really helpful to separate kinematics from forces. Though related, they are too easily conflated and assigned bias without separating them. (Just a quick .02)
          Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
          “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

          Comment


          • Dave, do you adhere to Ptolemaic Geocentrism or some form of Tychonian Geocentrism? (Or perhaps some other form.)
            Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
            “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DFT_Dave View Post
              How can gravity be weak if it's holding the moon in it's orbit around the earth and the earth's orbit around the sun and our entire atmosphere.

              --Dave
              The word weak is a relative term.

              It is just strong enough to cause what it causes, David. I mean, how am I supposed to answer that question?

              The exact same force that causes apples to fall from trees is what keeps the Moon in orbit around the Earth and the Earth around the Sun. Newton proved that hundreds of years ago.

              And yes, once again, I do mean that literally, he did PROVE it. It is a known fact. It is NOT a theory, it is not a suggestion, belief or conjecture. It is a well establish fact of science.

              Gravity is pulling on you just as it is the Moon. The difference is that while you are very much closer to the Earth than the Moon, the Moon is very very much more massive that you are. The Moon is, in fact, in free fall but the Moon's velocity perpendicular to the pull of gravity means that the surface of the Earth curves away from the Moon at the same rate at which the Moon falls toward the Earth. This is what is known as an orbit. The orbit does not decay hardly at all because the Moon is traveling through the vacuum of space and so there is no friction to slow it's velocity (again, Newton's Laws of motion at work!).

              In fact, the pull of gravity seems tailor made for life on Earth. It's as if someone designed it to be just exactly as strong as it is. If it were even slightly different then the tides wouldn't work right and the oceans would die and we'd all be sucking carbon dioxide instead of oxygen. If gravity's pull were slightly different the Earth would be either too close or too far from the Sun and again we don't survive. Now, it could be the other way around. It could be that God designed life to work in the gravitational environment that happened to exist on the Earth or perhaps it's some of both but the point is that we know quite a lot about the pull of gravity and the effects that it has on Earth and from one direction or the other, life is very much dependent on it being just exactly as strong as it is.


              I've asked you repeatedly to answer my question and you've ignored me. Why do you think it's okay to do that? What motive do I have to continue this discussion one more day? Am I your personal Mr. Answer Man where I answer every question posed to me but you ignore my questions completely?

              I want an answer, David. Why do you not permit clear proofs that the Earth cannot be flat to persuade your mind?

              Clete
              sigpic
              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

              Comment


              • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                For either “side”, it’s really helpful to separate kinematics from forces. Though related, they are too easily conflated and assigned bias without separating them. (Just a quick .02)
                Are you suggesting that gravity isn't a force but rather some form of kinematic something or other?

                If not, what was the point of making this comment?
                sigpic
                "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Clete View Post
                  The word weak is a relative term.

                  It is just strong enough to cause what it causes, David. I mean, how am I supposed to answer that question?

                  The exact same force that causes apples to fall from trees is what keeps the Moon in orbit around the Earth and the Earth around the Sun. Newton proved that hundreds of years ago.

                  And yes, once again, I do mean that literally, he did PROVE it. It is a known fact. It is NOT a theory, it is not a suggestion, belief or conjecture. It is a well establish fact of science.

                  Gravity is pulling on you just as it is the Moon. The difference is that while you are very much closer to the Earth than the Moon, the Moon is very very much more massive that you are. The Moon is, in fact, in free fall but the Moon's velocity perpendicular to the pull of gravity means that the surface of the Earth curves away from the Moon at the same rate at which the Moon falls toward the Earth. This is what is known as an orbit. The orbit does not decay hardly at all because the Moon is traveling through the vacuum of space and so there is no friction to slow it's velocity (again, Newton's Laws of motion at work!).

                  In fact, the pull of gravity seems tailor made for life on Earth. It's as if someone designed it to be just exactly as strong as it is. If it were even slightly different then the tides wouldn't work right and the oceans would die and we'd all be sucking carbon dioxide instead of oxygen. If gravity's pull were slightly different the Earth would be either too close or too far from the Sun and again we don't survive. Now, it could be the other way around. It could be that God designed life to work in the gravitational environment that happened to exist on the Earth or perhaps it's some of both but the point is that we know quite a lot about the pull of gravity and the effects that it has on Earth and from one direction or the other, life is very much dependent on it being just exactly as strong as it is.


                  I've asked you repeatedly to answer my question and you've ignored me. Why do you think it's okay to do that? What motive do I have to continue this discussion one more day? Am I your personal Mr. Answer Man where I answer every question posed to me but you ignore my questions completely?

                  I want an answer, David. Why do you not permit clear proofs that the Earth cannot be flat to persuade your mind?

                  Clete
                  Obviously, I see contradictions and equivocation for a spinning globe. That gravity is a weak force so we can move freely on earth yet it's powerful enough to pull the moon and keep it in orbit is nonsense.

                  The earth spins at almost the speed of sound and yet we never feel or see it.

                  It would seem that a powerful force as opposed to a weak one would be required to pull the entire atmosphere both downward and in the same direction of earths spin.

                  As we have already noted there were experiments that proved the earth was not moving and that the stars were moving and not the earth. But along came Einstein to save the day with "relativity" and thought experiments replaced physical experiments.

                  --Dave
                  www.dynamicfreetheism.com
                  The only view of ultimate reality that provides
                  rational answers to the questions of human origin, destiny, and dignity.
                  The only view that proves the existence and explains
                  the nature of God.

                  Comment


                  • Dave lives in am alternate reality, in which science and the history of science are different than in the world the rest of us live in.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Clete View Post
                      Are you suggesting that gravity isn't a force but rather some form of kinematic something or other?

                      If not, what was the point of making this comment?
                      No. “Gravity” (whatever it “is”) would be a force. Separating forces from kinematics is necessary. One cannot merely look at movements and presume forces.

                      The movements don’t determine what the force is or what it is doing to effect movement.
                      Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                      “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                      Comment


                      • While I don't subscribe to the 'flat earth' theory: I do believe that the earth might be fixed and immobile. I see no reason why it might not be.
                        "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                        If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                          While I don't subscribe to the 'flat earth' theory: I do believe that the earth might be fixed and immobile. I see no reason why it might not be.
                          Doesn't work if the stars are light-years to billions of light-years away. And we know that space is big enough for that to be true.

                          The furthest stars would be moving at millions of times the speed of light if that were so to be able to get same amount of movement across the sky, and that's just not possible.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DFT_Dave View Post
                            Obviously, I see contradictions and equivocation for a spinning globe. That gravity is a weak force so we can move freely on earth yet it's powerful enough to pull the moon and keep it in orbit is nonsense.
                            No, David it is not nonsense. It has been PROVEN!

                            The earth spins at almost the speed of sound and yet we never feel or see it.
                            Because we are moving right along with it!

                            If you get into a jet and go twice the speed of sound, once you've stopped acceleating you would feel that either and you could look down at the instrumments and they'd appear to be totally motionless relative to you and you've have no wind in your hair because the atmosphere in your plane is also moving right along with you as well.

                            This is childishly simple stuff to understand. CHILDISH!

                            It would seem that a powerful force as opposed to a weak one would be required to pull the entire atmosphere both downward and in the same direction of earths spin.
                            Gravity is not pull the atmosphere in the direction of Earth spin. That's being caused by friction. Again, eighth grade level stuff here.

                            As we have already noted there were experiments that proved the earth was not moving and that the stars were moving and not the earth. But along came Einstein to save the day with "relativity" and thought experiments replaced physical experiments.

                            --Dave
                            You are either lying or are delusional and I'm finished being ignored.

                            Good bye David. Have a good life. I no longer give a damn what you think or believe or why. It clearly has nothing at all to do with reason or the truth or anything else I care about.

                            I'm out!

                            sigpic
                            "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                              While I don't subscribe to the 'flat earth' theory: I do believe that the earth might be fixed and immobile. I see no reason why it might not be.
                              I’ve spent a number of years doing extensive authentic research of both heliocentricity and geocentricity, and all other attendant factors (including fixed earth, etc.); and I remain unconvinced of ANY of the views being absolutely “proven”. I’m less inclined to seriously consider flat earth, but there are compelling arguments for both “sides”.

                              I don’t really care one way or the other, honestly.
                              Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                              “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                                I’ve spent a number of years doing extensive authentic research of both heliocentricity and geocentricity, and all other attendant factors (including fixed earth, etc.); and I remain unconvinced of ANY of the views being absolutely “proven”. I’m less inclined to seriously consider flat earth, but there are compelling arguments for both “sides”.

                                I don’t really care one way or the other, honestly.
                                I disagree that there are "compelling" arguments for FE.
                                All of my ancestors are human.
                                Originally posted by Squeaky
                                That explains why your an idiot.
                                Originally posted by God's Truth
                                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

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