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  • Original Sin and the Calvinists

    The Westminster Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation":

    "They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation"
    [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

    The Calvinists then say that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":
    "From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).

    If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing exactly what He designed them to do:

    "...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).

    Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The Westminster Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation":

    "They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation"
    [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

    The Calvinists then say that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":
    "From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).

    If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing exactly what He designed them to do:

    "...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).

    Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!
    Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God? What possible justification is there for them to reject God even in the face of all He did in their deliverance?
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
      The Westminster Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation":

      "They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation"
      [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

      The Calvinists then say that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":
      "From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).

      If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing exactly what He designed them to do:

      "...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).

      Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!
      This teaching is correct. We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good. This is Christianity 101 where all men are born sinners and morally corrupt. There wouldn't be much need of a savior to save us from sin if we weren't sinners.....duh! This teaching has nothing to do with predestination but simply states man's true condition which is fallen, corrupt and evil.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
        Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God? What possible justification is there for them to reject God even in the face of all He did in their deliverance?
        There was always a faithful remnant that did not reject God. What about them?
        All of my ancestors are human.
        Originally posted by Squeaky
        That explains why your an idiot.
        Originally posted by God's Truth
        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

        Comment


        • #5
          Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
          I Kings 19:18
          If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

          The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
          Jeremiah 17:9

          Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
          Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

          Isaiah 50:10-11

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
            Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God? What possible justification is there for them to reject God even in the face of all He did in their deliverance?
            They missed the pleasures of sin. Is that not reason enough? They wanted this life easier and more gratifying for the flesh. They were hungry for better food, they argued and they pleased themselves.
            Oh how I love the Word of God!

            Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
              They missed the pleasures of sin. Is that not reason enough? They wanted this life easier and more gratifying for the flesh. They were hungry for better food, they argued and they pleased themselves.
              In other words, they were subject to the fallen nature.

              These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
              And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
              The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
              Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
              And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
              Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.

              Deuteronomy 29:1-6
              If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

              The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
              Jeremiah 17:9

              Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
              Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

              Isaiah 50:10-11

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                In other words, they were subject to the fallen nature.

                These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
                And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
                The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
                Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
                And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
                Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.

                Deuteronomy 29:1-6
                Did Moses, Aaron, and Miriam?
                What exactly are you saying?
                God gives ears and sight to those who obey and repent.
                Many are called few are chosen.
                Oh how I love the Word of God!

                Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Epoisses View Post
                  This teaching is correct. We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good. This is Christianity 101 where all men are born sinners and morally corrupt. There wouldn't be much need of a savior to save us from sin if we weren't sinners.....duh! This teaching has nothing to do with predestination but simply states man's true condition which is fallen, corrupt and evil.
                  Can do NOTHING good?
                  You are not considering the full counsel of God.
                  Oh how I love the Word of God!

                  Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There are many who still have not repented of believing some falseness or another.

                    There is still falseness intertwined with what is true.

                    We can do right and obey then be saved.

                    Why teach that we cannot?
                    Oh how I love the Word of God!

                    Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                      Did Moses, Aaron, and Miriam?
                      What exactly are you saying?
                      God gives ears and sight to those who obey and repent.
                      Many are called few are chosen.
                      They saw. Remember the order God gave Isaiah :

                      And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
                      Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

                      Isaiah 6:9-10

                      The point being that the opening of the heart, eyes and ears has to come first.
                      If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                      The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                      Jeremiah 17:9

                      Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                      Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                      Isaiah 50:10-11

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                        Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God?
                        The same reason why Adam sinned. He was created spiritually alive but despite that he went his own way instead of the LORD's way.

                        That is the peril of free will.

                        If a person sins because of his nature then he would have an excuse for sinning but the Scriptures reveal that a man is without excuse.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                          They saw. Remember the order God gave Isaiah :

                          And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
                          Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

                          Isaiah 6:9-10

                          The point being that the opening of the heart, eyes and ears has to come first.
                          What you say is not true.

                          Those who have a right heart are the ones who hear and see, for God makes sure of that.

                          Jesus tells us how to makes our hearts right.

                          JESUS TELLS US HOW to make our hearts right.

                          Jesus saves those who obey him EVEN IF THEY do not understand but obey ANYWAYS.
                          Oh how I love the Word of God!

                          Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                            What you say is not true.

                            Those who have a right heart are the ones who hear and see, for God makes sure of that.

                            Jesus tells us how to makes our hearts right.

                            JESUS TELLS US HOW to make our hearts right.

                            Jesus saves those who obey him EVEN IF THEY do not understand but obey ANYWAYS.
                            You're arguing things that can only follow what comes first. Without a foundation, none of this is even possible. Why not obey the next man who comes along and says "God says to do X" when X is not exactly what is in scripture? Because those who are His will hear His voice. Not those who hear His voice will be His.
                            If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

                            The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                            Jeremiah 17:9

                            Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
                            Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

                            Isaiah 50:10-11

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nikolai_42 View Post
                              You're arguing things that can only follow what comes first. Without a foundation, none of this is even possible. Why not obey the next man who comes along and says "God says to do X" when X is not exactly what is in scripture? Because those who are His will hear His voice. Not those who hear His voice will be His.
                              What are you talking about? Jesus tells us what to obey.
                              Oh how I love the Word of God!

                              Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                              Comment

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