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Jesus' Gospel vs Paul's Gospel

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  • Jesus' Gospel vs Paul's Gospel

    [MENTION=17355]popsthebuilder[/MENTION]

    You claim that Paul's message/gospel is the same as Jesus', James', Peter's, et al's gospel, and that Paul's Gospel is only different when taken out of context.

    Would you like to make any other points to begin this thread?

  • #2
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    [MENTION=17355]popsthebuilder[/MENTION]

    You claim that Paul's message/gospel is the same as Jesus', James', Peter's, et al's gospel, and that Paul's Gospel is only different when taken out of context.

    Would you like to make any other points to begin this thread?
    Sure.

    The gospel and will of GOD has been without change since before the formation of the worlds

    Now, if you would; please show the differences you perceive, and I will, from those, show that they are indeed the same.

    Thanks for starting this thread; I look forward to a leveled peaceable conversation.

    Comment


    • #3
      There is only one Gospel. It is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

      Jesus did not preach it. He left that up to the apostles.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
        Sure.

        The gospel and will of GOD has been without change since before the formation of the worlds

        Now, if you would; please show the differences you perceive, and I will, from those, show that they are indeed the same.

        Thanks for starting this thread; I look forward to a leveled peaceable conversation.
        Pops, would you agree that many of the conflicts that divide the Christian Church today, including baptism, eternal security, "faith" vs "works + faith", all have both sides of their arguments rooted in differing scriptures?

        (For example, James 2:24 vs Romans 4:5, Romans 8:37-39 vs 2 Peter 2:20-21, etc.)

        In other words, are you aware that there are apparent conflicts between different scripture verses within the Bible?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
          Pops, would you agree that many of the conflicts that divide the Christian Church today, including baptism, eternal security, "faith" vs "works + faith", all have both sides of their arguments rooted in differing scriptures?

          (For example, James 2:24 vs Romans 4:5, Romans 8:37-39 vs 2 Peter 2:20-21, etc.)

          In other words, are you aware that there are apparent conflicts between different scripture verses within the Bible?
          No... I do not believe that any sacred texts containing the word of GOD is contradictory. If it is then, to me, that is a sign that one part or the other is indeed opposed to the word of GOD, and as such, of a separate, different nature. Either that, or one is misunderstanding one or the other or both. GOD doesn't make mistakes; never has.

          We are going to focus on the scriptures ascribed to Jesus, and St. Paul, right?

          Comment


          • #6
            (If all power is given Christ which is the head of the church (congregation of faithful to GOD through Christ) then it stands to reason that those who are His are made holy by His work and will, and to His glory, though it be done through the vessel of the believer in which Christ dwells in and directs. Is all power synonymous with not enough power to even abide by one's own conscience?

            Sorry; was just reading. It isn't the best to start my side of the argument, but it works while I await your own.)

            Ephesians 1: 4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16. Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
            (pretty sure those are ascribed to St. Paul.)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
              No... I do not believe that any sacred texts containing the word of GOD is contradictory.
              I agree, there are no contradictions. My question, however, is not "are there contradictions," my question is "do some verses seem to contradict on the surface?"

              If it is then, to me, that is a sign that one part or the other is indeed opposed to the word of GOD, and as such, of a separate, different nature.
              Again, my question is not "do they contradict" but "does it seem like they contradict, at least on the surface.

              We are going to focus on the scriptures ascribed to Jesus, and St. Paul, right?
              We will focus on the Bible as a whole, including the words spoken by Jesus and Paul.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                I agree, there are no contradictions. My question, however, is not "are there contradictions," my question is "do some verses seem to contradict on the surface?"



                Again, my question is not "do they contradict" but "does it seem like they contradict, at least on the surface.



                We will focus on the Bible as a whole, including the words spoken by Jesus and Paul.
                Yes then; I agree that to some, and, or, at first glance; some texts can seem to be contradictory in mans partial understanding and knowledge.

                Comment


                • #9
                  (we see here repeatedly that though the work of GOD, saith is with effect and that effect is the fruit of the Spirit, not of man. The same can easily and readily be found throughout all of scripture.)

                  Ephesians 2: 1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

                  (I will wait for your response)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                    Yes then; I agree that to some, and, or, at first glance; some texts can seem to be contradictory in mans partial understanding and knowledge.
                    What about verses that blatantly contradict each other?

                    Such as these two?

                    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV

                    Paul says "you have been saved through faith . . . not by works."

                    You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

                    James says "A man is justified (ie saved) by works."

                    How do you reconcile those two verses?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      What about verses that blatantly contradict each other?

                      Such as these two?

                      For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,not of works, lest anyone should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV

                      Paul says "you have been saved through faith . . . not by works."

                      You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4&version=NKJV

                      James says "A man is justified (ie saved) by works."

                      How do you reconcile those two verses?
                      Simply and easily; works pleasing to GOD are not the works of man done for the sight of man, but are the product of effectual Faith. Change is preached in our gospel by the high priest directly; from one state, to another. I can attest to this and too verify it as it has happened in my sight, my the Grace of GOD. Would you have us believe for one second that St. Paul spoke another gospel; one of reverent indifference and utter lack of change?

                      What of all the verses that say we will be made righteous and holy and good and pleasing, and sons of GOD? Don't you know that good has no fellowship with evil?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Double post due to lag....deleted.

                        Sorry

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The "Gospel of the Kingdom" had its beginning in the ministry of John the Baptist.
                          It called for "National Repentance" to prepare the way for the coming of Messiah
                          to set-up the Kingdom on earth (ie: Millennial Kingdom). Jesus ministry further
                          amplified the Law so that all Israel was in need of repentance. This
                          "Gospel of the Kingdom" will once again be preached in Israel, after the departure
                          of the "Church" (ie: Body of Christ), and also during the Tribulation, preparing
                          the way for the return of Messiah to the earth. Note in Acts 3 that Peter's
                          sermon continues with the theme of the Millennial Kingdom, using the phrases
                          "Restitution of All Things" and "Times of Refreshing" (Acts 3:19-21).

                          The "Gospel of Grace" was revealed to the Apostle Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by beameup View Post
                            The "Gospel of the Kingdom" had its beginning in the ministry of John the Baptist.
                            It called for "National Repentance" to prepare the way for the coming of Messiah
                            to set-up the Kingdom on earth (ie: Millennial Kingdom). Jesus ministry further
                            amplified the Law so that all Israel was in need of repentance. This
                            "Gospel of the Kingdom" will once again be preached in Israel, after the departure
                            of the "Church" (ie: Body of Christ), and also during the Tribulation, preparing
                            the way for the return of Messiah to the earth. Note in Acts 3 that Peter's
                            sermon continues with the theme of the Millennial Kingdom, using the phrases
                            "Restitution of All Things" and "Times of Refreshing" (Acts 3:19-21).

                            The "Gospel of Grace" was revealed to the Apostle Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.
                            Throughout all time change (repentance) has been spoken of. Change from a blind sinner to a knowing saint. Is all power and being made holy the same as no effect and staying the same? Is there still a division between Israel and the gentile, or are they made as one now?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                              Simply and easily; works pleasing to GOD are not the works of man done for the sight of man, but are the product of effectual Faith.
                              You could interpret what James is saying to mean that, even though that's not what he's saying.

                              James is saying that works are required for salvation, along with faith. Paul is saying that it is only faith that saves, and that if you do works, those works are as debt (Rom. 4:4).

                              Let me ask you, is James preaching grace in his book? Or is he preaching law?

                              Change is preached in our gospel by the high priest directly; from one state, to another. I can attest to this and too verify it as it has happened in my sight, my the Grace of GOD.
                              Could you explain what you mean by "change"?

                              Would you have us believe for one second that St. Paul spoke another gospel; one of reverent indifference and utter lack of change?
                              Not another one, just a different one.

                              What of all the verses that say we will be made righteous and holy and good and pleasing, and sons of GOD?
                              Could you reference those please? (Just book, chapter, and verse, no need to quote the verses, I can look them up.)

                              Don't you know that good has no fellowship with evil?
                              Of course.

                              Comment

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