You are a scholarly person... reach past the bias. The evidence is clear, and you all would do well to humble and correct Glory! She does it daily for others. It would be well if someone she would listen to would be 100 with her!
There is no bias. I don't know glorydaz any better than I know you except from what I've read on this website. She does not believe what you are freaking out over.
This is Limited Atonement... flirtation... and though the Atonement is said to be "Sufficient"... she is iterating that she refuses to tell the unbeliever that Jesus died for them.
The attitude here appears to be that the Holy Spirit isn't there to explain this to the individual... but instead... Glory inserts herself into the need of the person knowing that the person will die in their sins... the issue here is that Glory knows that Sonnet already knows this portion of the Gospel and thus... Glory is deferring.... to a 50% argument that says... "No... Because that person may die in their sins if I tell them Jesus Died for their sins..."
Unlike what maybe most on this website would do, I simply clicked on the link that takes me to the post that you partially quoted and read the whole post. You should do the same. glorydaz is not a Calvinist and no Calvinist would agree with a syllable of that post and nothing she said there smacks of Limited Atonement in the slightest. Her phrasing seems to have been aimed at poking you in an emotional soft spot. It appears to have hit it's mark.
Sonnet didn't ask this... and Glory knows Sonnet already knows what she is intentionally saying to avoid saying "Jesus died for even the unbelieving". The fact remains that Glory corrects people for saying that Jesus died for all. You can even go to Pate's threads and see her in action. She's becoming a regular TULIP Bee. She's Duplicitous and I wanted to drop this, but you exonerated her out of friendship, instead of doing research for a matter you decided to help mediate. I trusted you to research something you were stepping into without bias.
Again, there is no bias. glorydaz is not "my friend". I don't know her at all outside of this website. I'm reasonably familiar with her positions on things and agree with most of what she says but that isn't "friendship".
I didn't show up here to mediate anything either. I'm simply subscribed to this thread but hadn't read any of it in a while so when I showed up and read a few of the latest posts, I literally couldn't figure out what the disagreement was so I asked. I still see no substantive disagreement.
Clete,
I'm glad you are a "Will" Theist. I see your point, but think we have to say "Free" because of the massive damage Reformed influence has had on western civilization. It's like people need to be reminded they have a brain God gave them, and they are allowed to use it.
Yes, I understand. As I said, "Free Will" works as a title used to refer to a set of doctrines.
This is in response to me forgiving someone for calling me an Unbeliever, a source of discord, invalid and many other things that have been leveled all throughout this thread.
Did I lose my stuff? Oh yes. I admitted shame for losing it! I even wanted to speak kindly to [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] , but she mocked me when I did and like a fool, I took the bait and talked to her like she consistently talks to others... out of pride and hostility, while hiding behind a thin veil of self justification.
If you actually were emotionally invested in me as a friend like you are Glory, you would have had the courtesy to look through this thread before you said something so void of a Holy Spirit Softened Heart... but the fact remains that you most likely dislike certain views I have and know that I don't believe in "Republican Moral Majority Jesus"... thus... you claim I don't have thick skin.
The truth is that I was enormously applauded when I ripped people to shreds and placed Theological agenda over human compassion.
I literally burned all of that applause and humbled myself for my errors... out of conviction of the Holy Spirit. I wanted all the credibility I had obtained while hurting fellow human beings that Jesus died for... to go away... hence... I asked [MENTION=12969]Sherman[/MENTION] to please destroy my old EE account.
The book of James supports my case and explains what the Holy Spirit has done to my heart.
I said it because you were whining about how someone was being mean to you. It has nothing to do with you or your beliefs. I literally don't know ANYTHING about what you believe outside of the few things you've said directly to me IN THIS THREAD! I have no doubt that I've read other posts of yours in other threads but I don't remember any of them and I couldn't tell you anything at all about what you believe or don't believe based on your user name. My responses here have 100% to do with what has been said here - in this thread - and nothing else.
Like when Jesus said... "I did not come to condemn the world but to save it"? Or, when He said... "Woman where are your accusers... I accuse you neither".
Or, how about... "Father forgive them, they know not what they do"?
How about... "Forgive 70 X 7"?
I think the issue is Bob E. is an idol here... and he promotes judging sinners that Jesus died for. How do I know Jesus died for even the sinners that Christians like to single out? Because Paul makes it clear... "WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US"...
Funny how the whole judge not thing comes into light. I judge doctrine, not people.. and brother... there is a difference and Christianity as a whole would be much more full of the flavor of Love if it understood.
When most Christians in the US are a step away from Westborro Baptist Church... just without the guts they have to boldly proclaim their hatred for people... We have a problem Denver Bible. (See what I did? I replaced Houston with DBC) DBC looks wonderful BTW... I wish I could go there. The outreach on their web site, does look enormously valuable. That means a bunch!
If you want to debate whether we should judge, start and thread and I'll "crush you to powder".
So forgiveness as Jesus taught is a sham? The "Love your enemy" and "While we were yet Sinners" thing should clear this up.
Typical. Your understanding of scripture is less than skin deep. If you formulate your doctrine by quoting verses without giving any thought to context, you may as well go join the Branch Davidians. Koresh should be back at any moment now.
I think Jesus has taken a back seat to the religion built around Him. We all screw up! Judge NOT means more that most admit. And why? Because people like to point fingers and say... "ewwwwww"... thank God I'm not them. James 2 and Romans 2 explain that that is spiritual SUICIDE!
Incredible.
Like I said, start a thread if you want. You won't like the results but maybe it'll do you some good.
I wonder who our example will be? Jesus... perhaps? He's the light and He showed us that the brutal and Spiritually judgmental of others sins are the ones that have the heat coming.
Remember Matthew 23? Remember that He came for the SINNERS and not the "Self Righteous"?
Would you say that this is part of the gospel?
I just ask because it's not even hinted at in those two verses you keep quoting at glorydaz.
Resting in His Grace and aware I am a flawed human being that was saved by the PERFECT King of Kings,
Nameless.in.Grace.Evil.Eye.<(@)>
Interesting double message.
I started to say that what follows is off the topic of the thread but then I realized that the thread is about the gospel so it's only off the topic of this weird quazi-debate about Limited Atonement that no one here other than AMR believes in.
Here's something for you to chew on...
The portion of your sign-off that acknowledges an awareness of
being a flawed human being is contrary to the idea that
you are resting
in Him which you expressed immediately prior. The two are in contradiction to each other and ARE NOT both true. If you are in Christ then you are clothed in His righteousness and are no longer flawed in any way. If you are in Him, you are a new creation and the things of old have passed away and you have been declared by the Judge of all things to be holy, righteous and good. Identifying yourself in your flesh is to both resurrect and feed that which was crucified in Christ. You'd do better to acknowledge the existence of your flesh but avoid identifying yourself in or by it. Sin resides in your flesh but you are not a sinner. Your flesh resides in you but you are not your flesh. You are to crucify your flesh, not keep it alive by identifying with it!
And since this thread is about answering the question, "What is the Gospel?", would you say that the doctrines I just alluded to are a big part of the gospel? I certainly would. So much so, in fact, that I'd insist that anyone who denied it was denying Christianity itself.
I ask because these ideas are found nowhere in the bible except within the writings of Paul. Jesus didn't mention anything at all similar to them and neither did Peter, James or John. In fact, if not for the books of Galatians and Romans no one would believe any of what I just said. How do you account for that? Did Jesus and the Twelve just forget to mention it, or what?
I ask the question because understanding the answer goes a long way to preventing the accidental (and chronic) feeding of your flesh that brought it up.
Resting in Him,
Clete
