pacifism for true Jesus' followers.
- Thread starter meshak
- Start date
Rosenritter
New member
Before I had read your opening post, but I had neglected to give much thought to the title. Then I despaired at why the thread was spiraling without profit, and gave though to why. That lead to the title (which I now consider) and realize that the title itself answers the opening post and why the discussion seemed to be losing ground. War cannot be destroyed by war, war is subdued through peace.
so whats your point?
drbrumley
Well-known member
Is there a world government that we should be beholden to?
Rosenritter
New member
The point is that the way to peace is from the heart, which is reflected both by the words of our hands and the words of our mouths. If we are to win people to peace, we should reflect that peace consistently.
Rosenritter
New member
It might depend on your understanding of "beholden" and there lies the general disagreement in these conversations. In the general sense I would say "no" as in the sense that any government is a second master which is hated compared to the first. I understand that we should respect the governments of this world to the extent (with the prerequisite) that they are not a terror to good works.
They are almost apples and oranges.
Mark 12:17 (NIV2011)
Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him.
Basically military as well as tax belong to Caesar. You can join military because it is an ask from Caesar as paying tax is.
You can thus pay tax as a duty to help the poor. You can also join army to defend your country.
Of course, if your conscience says no, you can deny both. You can deny the paying of tax if you feel that the tax is used against, say, Christian churches. The same if you don't feel good about joining army you can choose to evade, Caesar will hold you accountable though. In the end, they belong to the duties demanded by Caesar.
Mark 12:17 (NIV2011)
Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” And they were amazed at him.
Basically military as well as tax belong to Caesar. You can join military because it is an ask from Caesar as paying tax is.
You can thus pay tax as a duty to help the poor. You can also join army to defend your country.
Of course, if your conscience says no, you can deny both. You can deny the paying of tax if you feel that the tax is used against, say, Christian churches. The same if you don't feel good about joining army you can choose to evade, Caesar will hold you accountable though. In the end, they belong to the duties demanded by Caesar.
Rosenritter
New member
So if Ceasar orders you to march to kill barbarians this is also giving to Ceasar what is Ceasar's? or if he orders you to lay seige to Jerusalem so that those inside might be killed or starve?
I already said, you can choose to escape the duty demanded by Ceasar if your conscience says that "it's not right". In this case, Ceasar may hold you accountable though (I already explained so).
Good or bad, in the end it belongs to a duty demanded by Ceasar.
I don't think that the Bible teaches you to kill Ceasar under the scenario you mentioned, if this is your point to make.
Rosenritter
New member
If that's the point you got out of it you must have read something completely backwards.
How so? Your reply here is just an assertion.
If someone thinks something is lawful but it is not, then is it lawful or not?
Rosenritter
New member
Exactly because my point is that we should not be killing others. So if you read my call for peace and the fulfillment of "love thy neighbor" and "love thy enemies" to mean "kill the evil tyrant" then you read it completely backwards. Evil tyrants and enemy drafted soldiers may be "an enemy" but we are still to love them, and it's awfully difficult to love someone when you're trying to kill them.
Rosenritter
New member
Who is the someone? And which law are you talking about? God or someone else? God's law or someone else's law? I didn't think this would need much explanation.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Aren't you still getting money from the military? I sure hope not. That would make you a hypocrite.
glorydaz
Well-known member
It's awfully difficult to love someone who just cut off your son's head, too. :think:
I wonder if we have to.
Rosenritter
New member
You might want to correct the label of the thread. It seems to have been accidentally titled "Pacifism for true Jesus followers." It made me think that it was supposed to ultimately be about how to follow Jesus with peace.
I titled that way because too many churches or Christians are pro-military which misrepresenting Jesus disgracefully.
Jesus was not and is not opposed to people being in the military who believed.