1 Corinthians 12:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Right Divider
Body part
"In my name" or "In the name of" -- these are references to coming in someone's AUTHORITY.
It's not talking about using proper names.
Here is another great example:
Matt 28:19 (AKJV/PCE)
(28:19) ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
"in the name of" here means by His AUTHORITY.
The twelve were given authority to do this by God (i.e., the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit).
Rosenritter
New member
Which is the same thing here RD.
Rosenritter
New member
Interesting. So considering everyone on this thread has been saying Jesus is Lord then all of us were of the Holy Spirit, right? We should take care how we answer each other then.
Consider that those who say "Jesus is Christ" and deceive many may not be perfectly sincere about Jesus being Lord. At least not in the practical sense.
Rosenritter
New member
It would seem that you have pitted two verses together as contradictory without resolution. One doesn't come in the name of Jesus and claim they themselves are Christ, and we obviously know that just because someone says "Jesus is Lord" that they aren't necessarily with God's spirit.
You wouldn't let me ask you for clarification on your thread so I thought I would ask here.
Rosenritter
New member
Right Divider
Body part
No, it is not.
Mark 13:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(13:6) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.
Basically this verse means "coming in my authority and claiming to be me".
Rosenritter
New member
It seems that you have behaved differently with your actions. I have consistently proclaimed that "Jesus is Lord" and "Jesus is LORD" but you have did not accept me as having the Holy Spirit. You've even seemed been quite belligerent at times. So if I proclaim "Jesus is Lord" (which I have ever since I touched this thread) and then you oppose me, you are then denying the Holy Spirit. Do you understand the conundrum?
Because of the inherent contradiction I think you may not be applying that verse correctly. You can disagree with me if you like, but (in the process of disagreeing) you'd be disagreeing with the Holy Spirit. Unless you too claim "Jesus is Lord" and then we have the Holy Spirit disagreeing with the Holy Spirit. Which destroys the argument again, leading back to "I think you may not be applying that verse correctly."
Love and Peace,
-Rosenritter
Lon
Well-known member
Interesting...your version doesn't have "I am the Christ" in quotes.... :think:
CherubRam
New member
Rosenritter
New member
Rosenritter
New member
For Keypurr,
Psalm 24:3-5 KJV
Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord ? or who shall stand in his holy place? [4] He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. [5] He shall receive the blessing from the Lord , and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Who is it talking about in this passage?
Psalm 24:3-5 KJV
Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord ? or who shall stand in his holy place? [4] He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. [5] He shall receive the blessing from the Lord , and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Who is it talking about in this passage?
Lon
Well-known member
Would a false-prophet says "He is the Christ." ? :think: They 'come in His name' apparently. Cults all have started with leaders exactly this way saying "I am the prophet, messiah, deliverer, teacher." Not too many saying 'He is the Christ' but surely they have said "I am like Him in the same way." A good many in this thread that deny His deity also proclaim the same. There is no sense that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Messiah if he is no different or not very much different than you and I.
This has been addressed elsewhere and all three of you do exactly what the text says, that is, you come in his name claiming that he is "I AM", and you are deceived by the many of your own teachers and you likewise foment the continuance of the deception of many. For that is exactly what the text says regardless of how Trinity biased translators prefer to leave out words and render their corrupt English renditions of the text.
The Master says:
"For many shall come in my name saying that I AM; and they shall deceive many."
PS -- In addition, if anyone ever did come in the name of Messiah, and also claiming to be the Messiah, how many people would he fool? The answer is very few, or NONE, and especially not in a place like this. Therefore you also nullify and make void this statement of the Master by way of your very own corrupt translations of the passage! :chuckle:
Lon
Well-known member
:doh: :nono: This is amateur hour again on your part. You are prognosticating your ignorance in favor of your pet cult understanding. All cults are shallow. God can reach through the dross of ignorance, but try to do your part and follow His leading. Pray for guidance. Ask Him if perhaps I'm right and you are wrong on this point. I can show, academically, that I'm correct, given half a trust. This passage is talking about false-teachers whose prediction/prophecies and teaching are blatantly wrong. How do we know? Because Jesus says they will deceive about the end-times, specifically. EVERY cult that has predicted an end time is to be treated as false prophets and false ministries. The old way to handle a false prophet was to eliminate them. We don't do that today, but it is a deal breaker.
Yep. We are discussing whether the Lord was meaning the person would say "He is the Christ" or "I [the speaker] am the Christ/Messiah," because English translation has given indication both ways. The KJV to mean "He is the Christ" of others referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, and others like the ESV saying that the person coming is claiming to be the Christ. Again, in history, we have examples of both. Not an easy passage then in that light and it certainly is evidenced both ways.
"οτι" is a conjunction with a simple tie-in "this leads or is connected to that." Saying "He is the Christ," in your mind, equates to "He is I AM?" :think: Interesting... He IS the Christ. Game, set, match?
:nono: You haven't been paying attention. Mormons? no? Rutherford Hayes? David Koresh? Jim Jones? etc. etc.
Not only that, Rosen was agreeing with you :doh: Again, we have evidence/record of both occurring. The main point of the passage again is about not being deceived, regardless if they are coming in their own name, or the name of the Lord Jesus as the Christ.
Last edited:
Was Rosen agreeing with me? I think not so either let Rosen speak for Rosen or show how what you say is true. However I doubt you will be capable of doing that because it does not appear that you even understood what I said to begin with. I already know what the excuse is for leaving out "hoti" which is that sometimes it is used to denote a quotation. However that too is mere speculation on the part of translators and arbitrary when it comes to deciding where and when. In addition you also ignored the fact that your interpretation of the passage essentially negates what it actually says. Just because you might have seen a few on TV like Jim Jones it is still nothing, a drop in the bucket, compared to the billion-plus mainstream Christians running around doing exactly what the passage says they would do: coming in the name of Yeshua and claiming that he is "I AM" just as you yourself do. Forty thousand dollars to be brainwashed and you are the one still playing amateur hour. :chuckle:
If what you say is so, explain the following
John 17:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[a] that they may be one as We are.
John 17:21 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
John 10:30 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 I and My Father are one.”
Rosenritter
New member
I think Daqq was agreeing with me with respect to as to whether the passage was saying that the false teachers would say "I am Christ" or acknowledge Jesus as Christ. In this respect you agreed with me, as I agreed with my King James translation over whichever one had inserted quotation marks around "I am Christ."
Daqq, may I call your attention to something for a moment? The passage is repeated three times in the gospels, including Matthew 24:5, Mark 13:6, and Luke 21:8. The passage in Matthew has the words "I am Christ"
Thus it is not unreasonable to assume that the meaning of the gospel authors Mark and Luke is that "I am" refers to the assumed subject of "Christ" using the multiple gospels to confirm intent. Now, far be it for me to dispute that Jesus is "I AM" as is translated in John 8:58.
Joh 8:57-59 KJV
(57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
(58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The statement really doesn't have much sense in that context otherwise. From their reaction apparently the Jews understood Jesus to have that meaning as well.
Regardless, you cannot make Mark and Luke say "I AM" without contradicting the gospel of Matthew, and even if you were to do that then I don't see how you could somehow make John NOT say "I AM" which contradicts your premise that it is a false gospel to recognize Jesus as our same LORD who spoke to Moses.