The Trinity

[marhig]

We are reading the same book. And we see most of the same things. If you agree with me you will be said to be wrong.

Ah don't worry about it, I'm sure I've been said to be wrong by many I've been called many things and as you said, God loves bums. I'm just a bum too. I'm only flesh but God looks at our hearts and he wants them changed and cleaned so that we can bring the light to others. I'm a completely different person than I was before i knew God. He's saved me from destroying myself and he's saving me daily from Satan and he's pulled me out of a very dark pit through Christ.

People can think they know it all, but if they have no love in their hearts and no compassion, they have nothing. God is love, and with his love in our hearts all things are possible. And we will care for everyone.

Jesus said this,

Matthew 5

Blessed are ye, when men.shall revile you, and persecute. you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

So I don't care what people say about me, it doesn't matter, I am a sinner anyway and I'm not perfect and I don't know everything. But what i do know is that I love God and Christ, and I feel Gods love in my heart and I know that i am risen with Christ. Because I was blind and deaf, but now I see and hear. And my life has completely changed. We all have different levels of understanding, but that doesn't mean we don't belong to God. So I don't judge anyone, I speak what I hear and his word judges me also. It's a two edged sword.

 

[Aner]

Marhig, Keypurr

The problem you gentlemen are encountering with your Christology is that it fundamentally denies the man Christ Jesus - and replaces him with some kind of divine being. That is simply not a man - and scripture repeatedly, clear and formally states that Jesus is a man who was conceived. Simple as that. Not need to add church traditions.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Marhig, Keypurr

The problem you gentlemen are encountering with your Christology is that it fundamentally denies the man Christ Jesus - and replaces him with some kind of divine being. That is simply not a man - and scripture repeatedly, clear and formally states that Jesus is a man who was conceived. Simple as that. Not need to add church traditions.

I do not think they are having any problem.

LA

 

[daqq]

I do not think they are having any problem.

LA

Me neither.

 

[daqq]

Marhig, Keypurr

The problem you gentlemen are encountering with your Christology is that it fundamentally denies the man Christ Jesus - and replaces him with some kind of divine being. That is simply not a man - and scripture repeatedly, clear and formally states that Jesus is a man who was conceived. Simple as that. Not need to add church traditions.

What if Yohanan becomes the man Yeshua? For he says, "That one must increase, but I must decrease", (and Messiah is "Ho Erchomenos", the one coming BEHIND Yohanan, that is or may be, speaking through him from "behind his face" or countenance). Did you know that Elisheba, (which is Elisabeth in transliteration), is the mother of the priesthood being the mother of every child of Ahron? Elisheba, that is, sister of Nahshon, Nasiy-Prince of tribe Yhudah. Yep, full blooded Yhudiy, that is, every son of Ahron is 100% Levite and 100% Yhudiy, (Jewish), by his mother Elisheba-Elizabeth. The Infancy Gospel of Yaakob, (James), expounds this idea but has been rejected from the Christian canon in these sophisticated indoctrinated modern times.

 

[beameup]

It's all about genetics. Mary's "seed" combined with YHWH "seed" = the unique God-Man.
The "flesh" was like a container - a "tent" or "tabernacle" - for God to exist in and
to PERMANENTLY exist in a glorified resurrected state.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. - John 10:9

if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. - John 8:24b

 

[Lazy afternoon]

It's all about genetics. Mary's "seed" combined with YHWH "seed" = the unique God-Man.
The "flesh" was like a container - a "tent" or "tabernacle" - for God to exist in and
to PERMANENTLY exist in a glorified resurrected state.

No.

Jesus was born a man, who learnt wisdom, was tempted, and did die.





LA

 

[Aner]

I do not think they are having any problem.

LA

I am pretty sure they are both holding an Arian Christology. Arian Christology fundamentally denies the man Christ Jesus - and replaces him with a created divine being and wraps him all up in a human body... Not exactly a man....

In contrast, the Word of God clearly, repeatedly and formally states that Jesus IS a man. I am sure you know the texts as well as I do.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Marhig, Keypurr

The problem you gentlemen are encountering with your Christology is that it fundamentally denies the man Christ Jesus - and replaces him with some kind of divine being. That is simply not a man - and scripture repeatedly, clear and formally states that Jesus is a man who was conceived. Simple as that. Not need to add church traditions.

How is what they have said denying the man Jesus the Christ?

Humbly, peace

Sent from my HTC Desire 512 using Tapatalk

 

[popsthebuilder]

I am pretty sure they are both holding an Arian Christology. Arian Christology fundamentally denies the man Christ Jesus - and replaces him with a created divine being and wraps him all up in a human body... Not exactly a man....

In contrast, the Word of God clearly, repeatedly and formally states that Jesus IS a man. I am sure you know the texts as well as I do.

Arianism does not deny that Jesus was a man at all.

It is a belief that the Christ was begotten( formed/ created) before the foundation of the earth.

How do you get that it denies Jesus the messiah as being a man?

Some people are very confused it seems.

Peace

Sent from my HTC Desire 512 using Tapatalk

 

[lifeisgood]

No where in scripture is Jesus said to be God.

How can Jesus be God when the Hebrew Bible says God is not a man? Cf. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_god_not_man.htm

Think for yourself friend. Don't be tied to tradition.

Think for yourself keypurr. Don't be tied to your 'new revelation' that came to you and only you believe.

BTW - what happened to the spirit that inhabited the body of Jesus before Jesus’ body was possessed by the Christ spirit at his water baptism as you preach?

 

[Rosenritter]

How can Jesus be God when the Hebrew Bible says God is not a man? Cf. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_god_not_man.htm



Think for yourself keypurr. Don't be tied to your 'new revelation' that came to you and only you believe.

BTW - what happened to the spirit that inhabited the body of Jesus before Jesus’ body was possessed by the Christ spirit at his water baptism as you preach?

Life is Good, the passage says that God is not a man, that he should lie, repent, or relent. It means that he is not weak or unstable like men. It is not a limitation on God that he cannot come in the form as a man, as shown when the LORD God visited Abraham with two angels.

Genesis 18:1-2 KJV
(1) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
(2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

When Abraham sees the men on their way, the LORD continues to talk with Abraham, and stays with him as he bargains the fate of the city.

Genesis 18:33 - 19:1 KJV
(33) And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
(1) And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

The natural reading of that passage is that of the three men, one of them was the LORD, and the other two were angels. The angels are called "men" in this context as well (see Genesis 19:5, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?") Besides, surely you cannot be saying that it is outside of God's power to take the form of a man?


I am not asking you to accept anything outside of scripture, just pointing out the flaw in your "God is not a man" reasoning.

 

[lifeisgood]

Life is Good, the passage says that God is not a man, that he should lie, repent, or relent. It means that he is not weak or unstable like men. It is not a limitation on God that he cannot come in the form as a man, as shown when the LORD God visited Abraham with two angels.

Genesis 18:1-2 KJV
(1) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
(2) And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

When Abraham sees the men on their way, the LORD continues to talk with Abraham, and stays with him as he bargains the fate of the city.

Genesis 18:33 - 19:1 KJV
(33) And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
(1) And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

The natural reading of that passage is that of the three men, one of them was the LORD, and the other two were angels. The angels are called "men" in this context as well (see Genesis 19:5, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?") Besides, surely you cannot be saying that it is outside of God's power to take the form of a man?


I am not asking you to accept anything outside of scripture, just pointing out the flaw in your "God is not a man" reasoning.

I have no idea where you got that I believe that it is outside of God's power to take the form of a man.

 

[Rosenritter]

I have no idea where you got that I believe that it is outside of God's power to take the form of a man.

It must have been the "God is not a man" statement that confused me then. It sounded like you were using a statement out of context to conclude that it would be impossible for Jesus to be God, because it was outside of his power to take the form of a man. I had heard that argument before and I may have incorrectly assumed that you were running with that.

 

[keypurr]

How can Jesus be God when the Hebrew Bible says God is not a man? Cf. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_god_not_man.htm



Think for yourself keypurr. Don't be tied to your 'new revelation' that came to you and only you believe.

BTW - what happened to the spirit that inhabited the body of Jesus before Jesus’ body was possessed by the Christ spirit at his water baptism as you preach?

How many spirits reside in you lifeisgood?

Again, Jesus Christ cast out many spirits in just one man.

Why do you not listen?

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

Mar_5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Mar_5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Luk_8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Have you ever studied the spirit world?

.

 

[Rosenritter]

I have an observation related to this topic. The thread began with a poll of whether "the Trinity is biblical and taught in the Bible." As it stands right now it has 38 for and 19 against, in approximately a 2:1 ratio. I have addressed this question in times past, and one of the first things I will ask is "What Trinity? Can you show me where?" Because it seems that different people have different ideas as to what that means.

Another thread on this site (Theology Online) posted a "Trinity Quiz": you are welcome to reference it here, I am posting the link because I think it does help answer those questions: What is the Trinity and is it Biblical and supported by the Bible?

http://www.challies.com/resources/take-a-test-on-the-trinity

So here's what I noticed while taking this quiz. First, it does have a definition, of sorts, if you page through the questions. However, the reasons given for the answers aren't bible verses, but rather things like the "Athanasian creed", the writings of "James White", and assertions of "John Frame." There is one reference of scripture for proof for a sub-point (question 13, John 5:36) but even that isn't used to prove the original question. The conclusion of the quiz is that any other interpretation is heresy, and "redemption is illogical and impossible without Trinitarian distinctions."

What I am underlining is this: the definition and defense of "Trinity" from this quiz was entirely from the Athanasian Creed, James White, and assertations of John Frame. None of those things are the Bible. One would assume that if the Bible clearly taught and defined "Trinity" that this source would be used instead. I would have to logically conclude that "Trinity" neither defined nor taught in the bible.

So this is what I propose. If you have a model of sorts to help you understand God, and it furthers that purpose without causing apparent biblical contradiction, then more power to you. But do not condemn others (as Rebecca Stark and Tim Challies have done) if they are willing to simply believe the Bible, as it says, for what it says.

Did the Word create all things, was God, is God, and made flesh and walked among us? Yes, my bible says that in black and white in the gospel of John. Do I need a Trinity doctrine, the Athanasian Creed, or James White to realize this? No, I don't. Do I need to believe whatever someone defines for me and calls "Trinity" to be saved? No, Mark 16:16 says that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Mark 16:16 KJV
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 19:4-5 KJV
(4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I don't think that "Trinity" should be a dividing line among true Christians. If someone believes the scripture and is accountable to scripture, if they believe their Lord and Savior is also the judge of the quick and the dead, and has right to that position by virtue of being not only their creator but of all things, this is sufficient for saving faith. The thief on the cross didn't confess a Trinity, rather he admitted his guilt and asked for mercy from Jesus when he entered into his kingdom.

 

[lifeisgood]

How many spirits reside in you lifeisgood?

Again, Jesus Christ cast out many spirits in just one man.

Why do you not listen?

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

Mar_5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Mar_5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Luk_8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Have you ever studied the spirit world?

.

You, keypurr, blaspheme by saying that Jesus was possessed. Not once but twice.

 

[lifeisgood]

It must have been the "God is not a man" statement that confused me then. It sounded like you were using a statement out of context to conclude that it would be impossible for Jesus to be God, because it was outside of his power to take the form of a man. I had heard that argument before and I may have incorrectly assumed that you were running with that.

The article is a question "How can Jesus be God when the Hebrew Bible says God is not a man? Cf. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9." http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamo...od_not_man.htm and it was in response to keypurr's insistence that Jesus is not God but just a twice possessed man.

 

[lifeisgood]

Again, Jesus Christ cast out many spirits in just one man.

Why do you not listen?

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

Mar_5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Mar_5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Luk_8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Have you ever studied the spirit world?

Yes, I have studied the spirit world and my prayer in your stead before My Lord and My Savior and My God Jesus the Christ is that He comes to you, keypurr, and cast the evil spirit that came to you from who knows where all of a sudden telling you that Jesus the Christ is a twice possessed man while you're still breathing. There is no hope after one stop breathing.

 

[lifeisgood]

I have an observation related to this topic. The thread began with a poll of whether "the Trinity is biblical and taught in the Bible." As it stands right now it has 38 for and 19 against, in approximately a 2:1 ratio. I have addressed this question in times past, and one of the first things I will ask is "What Trinity? Can you show me where?" Because it seems that different people have different ideas as to what that means.

Another thread on this site (Theology Online) posted a "Trinity Quiz": you are welcome to reference it here, I am posting the link because I think it does help answer those questions: What is the Trinity and is it Biblical and supported by the Bible?

http://www.challies.com/resources/take-a-test-on-the-trinity

So here's what I noticed while taking this quiz. First, it does have a definition, of sorts, if you page through the questions. However, the reasons given for the answers aren't bible verses, but rather things like the "Athanasian creed", the writings of "James White", and assertions of "John Frame." There is one reference of scripture for proof for a sub-point (question 13, John 5:36) but even that isn't used to prove the original question. The conclusion of the quiz is that any other interpretation is heresy, and "redemption is illogical and impossible without Trinitarian distinctions."

What I am underlining is this: the definition and defense of "Trinity" from this quiz was entirely from the Athanasian Creed, James White, and assertations of John Frame. None of those things are the Bible. One would assume that if the Bible clearly taught and defined "Trinity" that this source would be used instead. I would have to logically conclude that "Trinity" neither defined nor taught in the bible.

So this is what I propose. If you have a model of sorts to help you understand God, and it furthers that purpose without causing apparent biblical contradiction, then more power to you. But do not condemn others (as Rebecca Stark and Tim Challies have done) if they are willing to simply believe the Bible, as it says, for what it says.

Did the Word create all things, was God, is God, and made flesh and walked among us? Yes, my bible says that in black and white in the gospel of John. Do I need a Trinity doctrine, the Athanasian Creed, or James White to realize this? No, I don't. Do I need to believe whatever someone defines for me and calls "Trinity" to be saved? No, Mark 16:16 says that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

Mark 16:16 KJV
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 19:4-5 KJV
(4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I don't think that "Trinity" should be a dividing line among true Christians. If someone believes the scripture and is accountable to scripture, if they believe their Lord and Savior is also the judge of the quick and the dead, and has right to that position by virtue of being not only their creator but of all things, this is sufficient for saving faith. The thief on the cross didn't confess a Trinity, rather he admitted his guilt and asked for mercy from Jesus when he entered into his kingdom.

The word 'Trinity' is just that a word and in and of itself is not found in the Bible; however, the principle of the Trinity can be found all throughout the Bible --- there is, if a person wants to believe God on it.

It is the same when a husband a wife becomes ONE flesh. People make too much out of the word and they miss the Trinity. The Trinity is simply God being Father, Son, Holy Spirit. If anyone has a problem with that, they will also have a problem with a husband and wife becoming ONE flesh.

====

If anyone is really interested:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/morey7.html

====

God is One:
Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Eloheem[PLURAL] is one[SINGULAR] Jehovah.

Trinity in the Old Testament:
From the FIRST (from the BEGINNING) I (the ONE SENT) have not spoken in secret, from the time it took place (when it ALL happened), I (the ONE SENT) was there. And now the Lord GOD (the Father) has sent Me (the Son), and His Spirit (the Holy Spirit)." Isaiah 48:12-16