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  • Originally posted by csuguy View Post
    Many of them contradict the Trinity, and none of them teach it.

    For instance:
    1 Cor 15:20-28 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    This verse both distinguishes the Son from God (not simply "Father", but "God") and establishes a clear hierarchy between the two after his earthly life (so none of that "he was only temporarily made less than God" unbiblical non-sense will work here)
    Excellent! The trinitarians haven't tried to explain that verse in I Corinthians. They just ignore it and continue on throwing out insults and saying how stupid non-trinis are. That is the sum and substance of their defense.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Selaphiel View Post
      I think that it is problematic that you separate scriptures from the church that canonized them, assuming they make any sense apart from the confessions of the church.
      It shouldn't be problematic. I have discussed at length these issues with a few Catholics, and they will admit that the Church teaches that their tradition outweighs "sola scriptura." There are many, many verses in the Bible that contradict Church teachings. But that is no object of contention with Catholics. Tradition is the thing to look at and believe in.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
        None contradict The Trinity.

        The Trinity comprehends ALL scripture.







        An unfortunate NIV translation.

        Theos is not in the Greek of verse 27, to begin with.







        Nope.
        You are the arch example of someone who is in DENIAL. You just can't see or hear anything but what you are intent on believing, whether it makes sense or not.

        The NIV got the meaning right, even though it didn't stick to the exact text in Greek. "Theos" isn't in the Greek in that verse (27) because it didn't need to be. Another version is this:

        "All things are subject to him [Jesus], undoubtedly He [that is, God] is excepted who has subjected all things to him." New Catholic Edition

        So "God" is not in the verse in the Greek text, but it is plain that it is God who subjected all things TO Jesus. Now, what about the rest of the passage?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
          God is a sacrifice for humanity.
          What kind of sense does that make? Almighty God can't be a sacrifice. He can't die! If He did, everything would cease to exist. It is Jehovah who keeps all things running. It is Jehovah, the Father, who raised Jesus up from the dead.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CherubRam View Post
            Deuteronomy 32:39
            “See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

            Isaiah 44:8
            Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.

            Isaiah 45:6
            so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other.

            If God was a trinity, wouldn't He speak of another; but what does He say, He says he knows of no other.
            YES, CherubRam!!!! Excellent point!!!! Jehovah is God and there is no other God with Him. (Psalm 83:18, KJV; John 17:3)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
              You still accept the existence of the Godhead. Definition (Dictionary.com)
              Godhead
              [god-hed]
              Spell Syllables
              Word Origin
              noun
              1.
              the essential being of God; the Supreme Being.
              the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
              The "Godhead" is not actually scriptural. That term is not used in many modern Bibles. "Godhead" is a term used by the KJV translators to twist the meaning of certain verses that speak of the SINGULAR God rather than three. "Godhead" suggests more than one person. It's a sly, subtle trick.

              The KJV was produced in 1611. Romans 1:20 is rendered as thus:

              "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

              The Douay-Rheims Version came out in 1610. Whereas the KJV uses the term "Godhead" in verse 20 of Romans 1, the Douay does not. It renders Romans 1:20 as:

              "For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable."

              "Godhead" is a fabrication of translators with a definite BIAS. I have quite a number of versions that do not say "Godhead" even at Colossians 2:9.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                The "Godhead" is not actually scriptural. That term is not used in many modern Bibles. "Godhead" is a term used by the KJV translators to twist the meaning of certain verses that speak of the SINGULAR God rather than three. "Godhead" suggests more than one person. It's a sly, subtle trick.

                The KJV was produced in 1611. Romans 1:20 is rendered as thus:

                "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

                The Douay-Rheims Version came out in 1610. Whereas the KJV uses the term "Godhead" in verse 20 of Romans 1, the Douay does not. It renders Romans 1:20 as:

                "For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable."

                "Godhead" is a fabrication of translators with a definite BIAS. I have quite a number of versions that do not say "Godhead" even at Colossians 2:9.

                I take it you have a problem with the KJV? Do you you feel it to be an invalid translation?
                He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                Jim Elliot

                Comment


                • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                  The "Godhead" is not actually scriptural. That term is not used in many modern Bibles. "Godhead" is a term used by the KJV translators to twist the meaning of certain verses that speak of the SINGULAR God rather than three. "Godhead" suggests more than one person. It's a sly, subtle trick.

                  The KJV was produced in 1611. Romans 1:20 is rendered as thus:

                  "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

                  The Douay-Rheims Version came out in 1610. Whereas the KJV uses the term "Godhead" in verse 20 of Romans 1, the Douay does not. It renders Romans 1:20 as:

                  "For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable."

                  "Godhead" is a fabrication of translators with a definite BIAS. I have quite a number of versions that do not say "Godhead" even at Colossians 2:9.

                  God head is scriptural, in fact, my phone pulled up Godhead when I began to type it.

                  Colossians 2:9

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                    The "Godhead" is not actually scriptural.
                    It doesn't matter. Your problem is the papacy; the Holy See; the continuation of Peter's office; the primary Apostle Matthew 16:16. Best regards.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                      You are the arch example of someone who is in DENIAL. You just can't see or hear anything but what you are intent on believing, whether it makes sense or not.

                      The NIV got the meaning right, even though it didn't stick to the exact text in Greek. "Theos" isn't in the Greek in that verse (27) because it didn't need to be. Another version is this:

                      "All things are subject to him [Jesus], undoubtedly He [that is, God] is excepted who has subjected all things to him." New Catholic Edition

                      So "God" is not in the verse in the Greek text, but it is plain that it is God who subjected all things TO Jesus. Now, what about the rest of the passage?


                      Pandering for renderings that artificially insert words that do not appear in the original Greek, will not help your lame JW worldview.

                      Comment


                      • Owned at the door step....

                        Let's review your pre-school understanding of scripture...


                        Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                        What kind of sense does that make? Almighty God can't be a sacrifice. He can't die!
                        Scripture state that His flesh died....JW.



                        If He did, everything would cease to exist. It is Jehovah who keeps all things running.
                        Next, in your ignorance, you will ask us who ran the Universe while God was dead for three days...right, JW...?



                        It is Jehovah, the Father, who raised Jesus up from the dead.
                        The Trinity raised Jesus from the dead......JW....


                        Who raised Jesus from the dead?

                        • God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10
                        • God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18; Romans 6.4;
                        • God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18
                        • The Trinity…Romans 10.9; 1 Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Apple7 View Post
                          Let's review your pre-school understanding of scripture...




                          Scripture state that His flesh died....JW.

                          The Lord Jesus Christ, who is God, raised Himself.



                          Next, in your ignorance, you will ask us who ran the Universe while God was dead for three days...right, JW...?





                          The Trinity raised Jesus from the dead......JW....


                          Who raised Jesus from the dead?

                          • God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10
                          • God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18; Romans 6.4;
                          • God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18
                          • The Trinity…Romans 10.9; 1 Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                            Nope and I agree with you, all that is needed is Christ. But it is still required that we believe who He is, yes or no?
                            The Bible is clear on what we must believe to be saved.

                            John 20:31
                            31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


                            Nothing is required beyond what the scripture states we must believe.

                            If you find it difficult to simply state that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, then there is something wrong with your beliefs.
                            Learn to read what is written.

                            _____
                            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                              No....what makes Jesus the bridge from God to humanity is his SINLESS NATURE. He doesn't have to be God to be the Redeemer. He just had to be ADAM'S EQUAL. As Adam condemned his descendants to death, Jesus (the "last Adam") will bring about humanity's salvation. (I Corinthians 15:22 & 45)

                              The only way you can get out of Isaiah & the N.T. that Jesus is God is if you already believe it, and you grasp at anything to "prove" it. The sad thing is, people who are not familiar with the Bible will think you are so smart (even though your "proof texts" are bogus) that they will take your word for it.

                              I have already done the homework, Crucible. For many years. I can turn over any argument you bring up.


                              JWs are terribly confused and brainwashed. The below portion of Scripture is talking about Jesus Christ after His Second Coming:

                              Isaiah 9:2-7 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased their joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as in the day of Midian. 5 For all the armor of the armed man in the tumult, and the garments rolled in blood, shall be for burning, for fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.
                              Jesus Christ Is God - See My Blogs

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                              Romans 10:9-10 KJV That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
                                Yes, He is the same essence as the Father

                                From CARM.org

                                The Trinity is the Christian teaching that God exists in three eternal Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same Person as the Son; the Son is not the same Person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same Person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct Persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony, consisting of one substance. They are co-eternal, co-equal, and co-powerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.
                                You believe the heresy of three Gods.
                                My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

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