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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • Originally posted by Child of God View Post
    You seem to have a problem with me,
    Well, no, not particularly. What I DO have a problem with is your unwillingness to substantiate your claims.

    willing to twist Scriptures to fit your understanding.
    Using scripture to support my position is twisting scripture to fit my understanding?

    Please explain.

    That is fine,

    LEAVE ME ALONE.
    You want to be left alone?

    Why did you join TOL then?

    You and YOUR BELIEFS can not stand a test of Scripture.
    You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

    Challenge my position, rather than complaining about it.

    You make a lot out of saying annihilated and destroyed.
    Because they don't mean exactly the same thing, and using them as if they did is irresponsible.

    You are a of a child's mind.
    In what way?

    You are ready [and WILLING(sic)] to FIGHT that HELL EXIST FOREVER,
    Correct?
    I'm ready and willing to argue that when God casts away those who ultimately rejected Him it will be for the rest of eternity, with no chance of ever being reunited with Him, yes.

    The fact that that separation is called "Hell" is besides the point.

    Does that make the Devil GOD?
    No.

    Living Forever?
    As I said before (I think), God created man and angels as eternal beings, having a beginning (angels when He created them and man from the moment they are conceived) but no end to their existence, compared to God who has no beginning and no end to His existence.

    Originally posted by Child of God View Post
    According to You the Devil Became god
    Please QUOTE me saying this, because I never said it.

    Please refrain from projecting your false assertions onto my beliefs.

    and LIVED FOREVER in Hell.
    Him and the rest of his fallen angels, and all humans who ultimately rejected God.

    I think you are mistaken.
    Saying it doesn't make it so. PROVE IT.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Derf View Post
      I think the argument, which is not without some merit, is that "eternal death" means never being alive again. Thus, the punishment--having no life whatsoever--is eternal ONLY if there's no recognition of the punishment (since they are no longer existing).

      The issue seems to be a different definition of what "death" means. The standard Christian definition, "separation from God", seems forced and difficult to back up in scripture, but there's still the issue of what the second death means, since the first death is negated (resurrection) before the second death is effected.

      If the definition of "death" used for the first death--the one that is negated by resurrection--is that the whole person ceases to function (annihilation), then a resurrection from that is quite the miracle, which seems purposeless if the same person, now resurrected, is annihilated again.

      My current thought, still subject to change, is that the first death is annihilation, which is overcome by the resurrection, in which nearly everyone participates (the beast and false prophet are exceptions, since they didn't die, but were cast alive into the lake of fire). But then the second death, to have meaning, must NOT mean annihilation. This second death is defined for us in scripture--lake of fire:

      [Rev 20:14 NKJV] Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
      [Rev 20:15 NKJV] And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
      You were close with your definition of death.

      Separation from God is only part of it.

      Simply put, death is separation. Period.

      When one dies physcially, they are separated from their family, friends, and their body is separated from their soul/spirit, and placed in a holding cell we call "Hell."

      There's no "annihilation" involved.

      When one dies spiritually, one is separated from God. This happens if one reaches the age of accountability, when they consciously make the choice to rebel against God, and it's at a different age for everyone, while some never reach that age simply because their mind never matures past the point of childhood, or they die before reaching that point, such as with aborted children.

      Since Christ's resurrection, they have been reconciled, but have to make the decision to allow God back into their lives, Romans 10:9-10. That's when they become raised spiritually.

      As far as those who died before reaching the age of accountability, I currently believe, and as far as I know, there is no scripture that talks about this, so it's mostly conjecture, that because God is merciful, He gives them the opportunity while in heaven to get to know Him, and then gives them a choice to either accept Him as their Lord and Savior, or to reject Him. Should they reject Him, they are separated from Him and placed in Hell to await final judgment on Judgment day, and again, because God is merciful, and because of what is said in Matthew about some deserving many stripes while others deserve few, they probably won't receive any, since aside from rejecting their creator, they did nothing wrong, and their rejection of Him will be dealt with on Judgment Day, when they are forever separated from Him by being cast into the Lake of Fire.

      So, I guess it comes down to which definition of "alive" you're using.

      Yes, they who are cast into the lake of fire for the rest of eternity are alive, in that they still exist and can function, but they are dead in that they no longer have access to the Creator God who made them, truly separated from Him.

      Alive, yet dead.

      Don't remember if it was in a recent show or if it was in one of his sermons, but Pastor Enyart et al came up with a really good definition of life, and I don't think anyone will ever be able to top it:

      What is life?

      "Life is God, and the property which He imparted to entities within creation that makes them either beings or organisms. The effects of this property may be further described, but it's nature, being tied up in the very nature of the essence of the Godhead, cannot be otherwise defined."

      So, yes, people cast into the lake for eternity have life, but they are dead.

      That's why we say a person will live forever in one of two places, with God or separated from God.

      Comment


      • It's biblical. Revelation 20:7-15
        He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

        Jim Elliot

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

          You were close with your definition of death.

          Separation from God is only part of it.

          Simply put, death is separation. Period.
          I accept that correction to the normal Christian definition of life. But I doubt its veracity.

          When one dies physcially, they are separated from their family, friends, and their body is separated from their soul/spirit, and placed in a holding cell we call "Hell."
          Yes, that's a form of the standard story, although many would disagree with you that it's the body that is place in a holding cell, as well as whether it applies to believers anymore--most would say it only applied to the believers who died before Christ died.

          There's no "annihilation" involved.
          The phrase "ashes to ashes and dust to dust" is commonly used by people talking about death. The phrase isn't in the bible, but part of it is taken from Gen 3:19:
          By the sweat of your face
          You will eat bread,
          Till you return to the ground,
          Because from it you were taken;
          For you are dust,
          And to dust you shall return.”

          This was God's pronouncement after Adam and Eve ate the fruit. The comparison Adam was given is before life started compared to after life ceases. If God is telling us the truth here, the difference between Adam's initial state (before life started, where he was still dust of the ground) and Adam's final state (after life ends) is nothing--no difference.

          If there's no difference--if God is comparing death to pre-existence, then you either have to allow for a pre-life existence (Adam existed before he was formed out of the dust), or you have to allow for a post-life non-existence, which would be synonymous to annihilation. God's pronouncement didn't end there, but He gave instruction not to let man eat of the tree of life, lest he live forever, and He even reiterates that man was taken from the ground for some reason:
          [Gen 3:22 KJV] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
          [Gen 3:23 KJV] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

          Thus, God allowed that man was broken. That brokenness was due to sin. It resulted in death. Death was described as becoming once again like before life began. And He didn't want Adam in this state to live forever--death needed to be assured, I assume to keep sin from lasting forever. Life in this case--where sin exists, which God wouldn't tolerate--was something God didn't want to allow, but it WAS possible. Thus, "life" is defined by God not as a lack of separation (since that was a given if Adam remained in his sin), but as continuing to exist despite such separation. Therefore the opposite of continuing to exist is what it appears God was talking about when He spoke of "death". And the opposite of "continuing to exist" is "ceasing to exist" or annihilation.

          When one dies spiritually, one is separated from God. This happens if one reaches the age of accountability, when they consciously make the choice to rebel against God, and it's at a different age for everyone, while some never reach that age simply because their mind never matures past the point of childhood, or they die before reaching that point, such as with aborted children.
          I would have to say some of your statement here is speculative--not backed up by scripture as much as by tradition. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but it should be afforded the same status as traditional/settled theism, which means it should be open to discussion, considering what the bible clearly says about it.

          Since Christ's resurrection, they have been reconciled, but have to make the decision to allow God back into their lives, Romans 10:9-10. That's when they become raised spiritually.
          It seems there are other ways to explain what Rom 10:9-10 mean. One possibility is that "you will be saved" is indicative of a future salvation, i.e., resurrection unto life.

          As far as those who died before reaching the age of accountability, I currently believe, and as far as I know, there is no scripture that talks about this, so it's mostly conjecture, that because God is merciful, He gives them the opportunity while in heaven to get to know Him, and then gives them a choice to either accept Him as their Lord and Savior, or to reject Him. Should they reject Him, they are separated from Him and placed in Hell to await final judgment on Judgment day, and again, because God is merciful, and because of what is said in Matthew about some deserving many stripes while others deserve few, they probably won't receive any, since aside from rejecting their creator, they did nothing wrong, and their rejection of Him will be dealt with on Judgment Day, when they are forever separated from Him by being cast into the Lake of Fire.
          Worthy of considering. I'll think about that.

          So, I guess it comes down to which definition of "alive" you're using.

          Yes, they who are cast into the lake of fire for the rest of eternity are alive, in that they still exist and can function, but they are dead in that they no longer have access to the Creator God who made them, truly separated from Him.

          Alive, yet dead.
          I'm not opposed to the alive, yet dead model. But the only time scripture clearly speaks of this is in respect to the second death, not the first death. The first death is often described as a state of sleep, instead. Which I take to mean a state of not functioning, while the body decays. So neither the body nor the mind/soul/spirit seem to have activity during this time between death #1 and resurrection. At least that's how the old testament and much of the new testament portray it.

          Don't remember if it was in a recent show or if it was in one of his sermons, but Pastor Enyart et al came up with a really good definition of life, and I don't think anyone will ever be able to top it:

          What is life?

          "Life is God, and the property which He imparted to entities within creation that makes them either beings or organisms. The effects of this property may be further described, but it's nature, being tied up in the very nature of the essence of the Godhead, cannot be otherwise defined."

          So, yes, people cast into the lake for eternity have life, but they are dead.
          I guess with that definition, God is with people in hell for eternity. And if there is some kind of life, even in death, then God must be actively maintaining it. Your definition seems to be a rather strong argument for annihilation.
          That's why we say a person will live forever in one of two places, with God or separated from God.
          Which you refute by your definition of both "life is separation" and "life is God".

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

            Well, no, not particularly. What I DO have a problem with is your unwillingness to substantiate your claims.



            Using scripture to support my position is twisting scripture to fit my understanding?

            Please explain.



            You want to be left alone?

            Why did you join TOL then?



            You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

            Challenge my position, rather than complaining about it.



            Because they don't mean exactly the same thing, and using them as if they did is irresponsible.



            In what way?



            I'm ready and willing to argue that when God casts away those who ultimately rejected Him it will be for the rest of eternity, with no chance of ever being reunited with Him, yes.

            The fact that that separation is called "Hell" is besides the point.



            No.



            As I said before (I think), God created man and angels as eternal beings, having a beginning (angels when He created them and man from the moment they are conceived) but no end to their existence, compared to God who has no beginning and no end to His existence.



            Please QUOTE me saying this, because I never said it.

            Please refrain from projecting your false assertions onto my beliefs.



            Him and the rest of his fallen angels, and all humans who ultimately rejected God.



            Saying it doesn't make it so. PROVE IT.
            So you AGREE that that the Devil LIVES FOREVER, also you say all those in Hell Live Forever.

            I do not find this Scripture.

            You say the Devil LIVES FOREVER, that would make the devil God.

            For one Alone is Eternal, and that is God,
            BUT
            YOU
            SAY
            The Devil lives Forever.

            I know you can not comprehend what I am saying.
            So I will try again.

            GOD ALONE lives Forever.

            YOU SAY the devil lives forever.

            You are saying the Devil if not Equal to God is God.

            Small point to your doctrine that the Devil Lives Forever,

            Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
            Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

            The Devil Dies.


            You say He lives forever, you are incorrect.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Child of God View Post

              So you AGREE that that the Devil LIVES FOREVER, also you say all those in Hell Live Forever.

              I do not find this Scripture.

              You say the Devil LIVES FOREVER, that would make the devil God.

              For one Alone is Eternal, and that is God,
              BUT
              YOU
              SAY
              The Devil lives Forever.

              I know you can not comprehend what I am saying.
              So I will try again.

              GOD ALONE lives Forever.

              YOU SAY the devil lives forever.

              You are saying the Devil if not Equal to God is God.

              Small point to your doctrine that the Devil Lives Forever,

              Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
              Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

              The Devil Dies.


              You say He lives forever, you are incorrect.
              Scripture states that the Devil will be tormented Day and Night forever and forever. Read the verse that you posted, Revelation 14:10. Don't you believe it?
              He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

              Jim Elliot

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

                Scripture states that the Devil will be tormented Day and Night forever and forever. Read the verse that you posted, Revelation 14:10. Don't you believe it?
                Reb 14:10 says this

                Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

                It also says the smoke of Babylon Rises forever.

                DO you KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS?


                How is Babylon going to be with us FOREVER, when it has become the home of,

                Rev_18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

                And the Smoke of this RISES FOREVER.



                Comment


                • Originally posted by Child of God View Post

                  Reb 14:10 says this

                  Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

                  It also says the smoke of Babylon Rises forever.

                  DO you KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS?


                  How is Babylon going to be with us FOREVER, when it has become the home of,

                  Rev_18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

                  And the Smoke of this RISES FOREVER.


                  My error, the verse is Revelation 20:10.
                  He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                  Jim Elliot

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

                    My error, the verse is Revelation 20:10.
                    So answer the rest of the questions.

                    Here is you verse.

                    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


                    I still do dot see were when God Ceases Hell and DEATH to Cease.. Hell Does not Cease.

                    YOU SAY Hell does not cease when God SAYS Hell and Death to Cease.


                    YOU SAY Hell goes on even though GOD causes Hell and Death to Cease.


                    Comment


                    • It is very funny,
                      God, The word of God In the Bible, says, Hell has an end.

                      Yet many people want to say the Devil is ETERNAL, Lives Forever.

                      Not according to Scripture.

                      Comment


                      • Child of God,

                        So what does the "devil... shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" mean?



                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Derf View Post

                          I think the argument, which is not without some merit, is that "eternal death" means never being alive again. Thus, the punishment--having no life whatsoever--is eternal ONLY if there's no recognition of the punishment (since they are no longer existing).

                          The issue seems to be a different definition of what "death" means. The standard Christian definition, "separation from God", seems forced and difficult to back up in scripture, but there's still the issue of what the second death means, since the first death is negated (resurrection) before the second death is effected.

                          If the definition of "death" used for the first death--the one that is negated by resurrection--is that the whole person ceases to function (annihilation), then a resurrection from that is quite the miracle, which seems purposeless if the same person, now resurrected, is annihilated again.

                          My current thought, still subject to change, is that the first death is annihilation, which is overcome by the resurrection, in which nearly everyone participates (the beast and false prophet are exceptions, since they didn't die, but were cast alive into the lake of fire). But then the second death, to have meaning, must NOT mean annihilation. This second death is defined for us in scripture--lake of fire:

                          [Rev 20:14 NKJV] Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
                          [Rev 20:15 NKJV] And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

                          the first death is separation from God and only "negated" by life in Christ

                          first death separation
                          Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

                          alive yet dead
                          Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

                          dead yet alive
                          Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God

                          dead and alive
                          Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
                          Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

                          life in Christ
                          Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Child of God View Post
                            How is Babylon going to be with us FOREVER, when it has become the home of,

                            Rev_18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

                            And the Smoke of this RISES FOREVER.
                            Babylon is a spirit, just as Jezebel is a spirit and Death and Hell are spirits. They will all be tormented in the Lake of Fire for eternity. Until then: they're beneath your feet in hell, located in the core of our planet.
                            "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                            If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by way 2 go View Post


                              the first death is separation from God and only "negated" by life in Christ

                              first death separation
                              Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
                              If that was the first death, then the second death must have been when they died physically, right? But Revelation 20, as I just posted, defines "second death" as something different than physical death--it has to do with the lake of fire.

                              alive yet dead
                              Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."
                              This is a good reference, w2g, but let's see if there are other ways to understand it. If there are, that doesn't make you wrong, but it wouldn't be very strong for your case. I propose that it means those that are slated for death--those that are not assured of eternal life. The man in question was on the brink of either being one of those (dead burying their own dead) or one that was alive. Yet even after he became "alive" in that way, he still would experience death in the same manner as Adam and Eve experienced, what you propose is their "second" death.

                              Let's put these two together. If Adam and Eve were "dead" because they were separated from God, then when they "died" physically, what was left? If we are all allotted twice to die, once spiritually and once physically, and Adam and Eve were the dead buried by other dead (like Cain and Seth), then what state were they in after physical death? weren't they in the hot part of Hades? Isn't the description you've just applied to Adam and Eve, who were dead spiritually, the exact same description you would use for the rich man in your Luke 16 quote?

                              dead yet alive
                              Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God
                              Job described something similar: And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God: [Job 19:26 KJV]
                              And he specifies that it will be in his flesh--he will be fully resurrected.

                              Jesus talks about this, too:
                              28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. [Jhn 5:28-29 KJV]

                              And you and I talked about this before:


                              Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                              you are mistaken the dead don't need eternal life to exist

                              There is
                              spiritual death, physical death Mat 8:22
                              Mat 8:22 But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.

                              there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12
                              Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God
                              Originally posted by Derf View Post
                              Except this is referred to as the 2nd resurrection. And dead people don't stand. So these were given life again. They were referred to as dead because they used to be dead, and something else was about to happen to them.



                              dead and alive
                              Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
                              Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

                              life in Christ
                              Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
                              Jesus explains, in the passage I quoted above, that all will be resurrected. And that resurrection seems to apply to both those that are going to live by coming to the Father and those that aren't (the resurrection of damnation). The difference, according to Rev 20, is whether they are in the book of life or not.


                              I wanted to readdress your old post quoted above where you said, "you are mistaken the dead don't need eternal life to exist", with a definition:
                              existencenoun




                              1. the state or fact of existing; being.
                              2. continuance in being or life; life

                              According to normal language, a person needs some kind of life in order to exist. That may not be what it takes for a rock to exist, but a rock doesn't feel pain, either. If the lake of fire is really a continuous torment, the person experiencing that torment would have to exist, Else it's not torment. And existing means life of some kind.

                              If that's true, then we have to have a new meaning of either life or death. You have proposed one--"spiritual death", but it's not defined too clearly in the bible (that's why you just have examples). I'm proposing another, "second death", which is defined clearly and succinctly in the bible:
                              14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. [Rev 20:14-15 KJV]

                              And it makes sense that after all people are resurrected, that they can't die in the same way again, so there needs to be a different kind of death for the second death--one where the person is still alive, but not the kind of life that comes from living with and for Christ.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Derf View Post
                                If that was the first death, then the second death must have been when they died physically, right?
                                no that would be sleep ,slept

                                1Ki 11:43 And Solomon slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David his father. And Rehoboam his son reigned in his place.
                                1Ki 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

                                Joh 11:11 After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."

                                then for people like you

                                Joh 11:14 Then Jesus told them plainly, "Lazarus has died,

                                But Revelation 20, as I just posted, defines "second death" as something different than physical death--it has to do with the lake of fire.
                                "second death" is permanent separation from God.

                                This is a good reference, w2g, but let's see if there are other ways to understand it. If there are, that doesn't make you wrong, but it wouldn't be very strong for your case. I propose that it means those that are slated for death--those that are not assured of eternal life. The man in question was on the brink of either being one of those (dead burying their own dead) or one that was alive. Yet even after he became "alive" in that way, he still would experience death in the same manner as Adam and Eve experienced, what you propose is their "second" death.


                                spiritually dead followed by biologically dead
                                Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."





                                Comment

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