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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Eternal separation for those who will never change their minds is neither evil nor mindless.



    No, it doesn't.

    Need an example?

    Go read the story of Pharaoh and the ten plagues.



    Dear J.R. I assume you know what the koine for destruction is in reference to the individual turned over to satan in the N.T. Your question= what is the result?

    God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
      Wouldn't be too much of a big deal, since everyone would forgive everyone for the mistake, right? Eventually?





      On the other hand, though...



      If someone teaches that sinners won't burn in hell for eternity, and they end up being wrong, then they themselves have condemned those in hell to hell, and those in hell will blame them and God for not making it utterly clear that they would burn in hell.

      Seems like it would be better to warn them of hell, even if it turns out to be wrong, than to never have warned them at all.



      Hell was made for adulterers, fornicators, murderers, rapists, theives, perjurers, coveters, blasphemers, idolaters.
      Do you honestly think a loving God would create life whereby eternal burning in hell could be a result? Does that not give you pause for thought at all? Also, if you have to threaten someone with some unimaginably horrifying fate then where is the love in any of that? You can't coerce love otherwise it's not love, it's simply threatening people to act out of fear. Is that what a loving God wants?

      Have you ever lied? Had impure thoughts? Coveted? You're just as much human as you seem to apply to those for whom "hell" was made for.
      Well this is fun isn't it?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by eleos View Post
        "the bible does not say torture" .. you are correct it does not ...
        what it sez is "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever"

        Comment


        • Gonna address yours first.

          Originally posted by Arthur Brain View Post
          Do you honestly think a loving God would create life whereby eternal burning in hell could be a result?
          Yes. Because that's exactly what He did.

          Does that not give you pause for thought at all?
          Why should it?

          Love can only be freely given.

          It's either God, or separation from God.

          That's what Hell/the lake of fire is. Separation.

          The most loving thing God could do is allow His creation to choose between Him and separation from Him.

          Also, if you have to threaten someone with some unimaginably horrifying fate then where is the love in any of that?
          Why is it a threat, when being with God for eternity, and not being with God for eternity, are the ONLY two options?

          God said make a choice.

          There's no in between.

          You can't coerce love otherwise it's not love, it's simply threatening people to act out of fear.
          It's not.

          It's making people face reality, which is that there are, in the end, only two options, either remain with God for eternity, or be separated from Him for all eternity.

          Is that what a loving God wants?
          God wants people to choose Him, not force them to be with Him.

          It comes down to who says "thy will be done," the man, or God.

          Have you ever lied? Had impure thoughts? Coveted? You're just as much human as you seem to apply to those for whom "hell" was made for.
          Of course.

          The difference, though, is that I choose God, rather than separation from Him, so that now I am no longer identified by my sins, but identified in Christ, my Savior.

          Those who are not, when they die, will have made their choice final.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FineLinen View Post
            Dear J.R. I assume you know what the koine for destruction is in reference to the individual turned over to satan in the N.T. Your question= what is the result?
            FL, either one chooses God before he dies or he does not.

            If he does, he says to God, "Your will be done," and he will live with God forever.

            If he does not, God will say to him on judgment day, "your will be done," and cast him into the Lake of Fire.

            Those are the only two options.

            God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
              FL, either one chooses God before he dies or he does not.

              If he does, he says to God, "Your will be done," and he will live with God forever.

              If he does not, God will say to him on judgment day, "your will be done," and cast him into the Lake of Fire.

              Those are the only two options.



              Dear J.R. I assume you do not grasp the scope of apollumi so we will not bother advancing to kolasis and kolazo.

              Focus on the Master's word to his disciples for every age>>>>

              "You did NOT choose Me..."

              "We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."

              https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/restore

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FineLinen View Post
                Dear J.R. I assume you do not grasp the scope of apollumi so we will not bother advancing to kolazo and kolazo.

                Focus on the Master's word to his disciples for every age>>>>

                "You did NOT choose Me..."

                "We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."
                cool story bro

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FineLinen View Post
                  Dear J.R. I assume you do not grasp the scope of apollumi so we will not bother advancing to kolazo and kolazo.

                  Focus on the Master's word to his disciples for every age>>>>

                  "You did NOT choose Me..."
                  Taking scripture out of context is sure to cause you problems.

                  I recommend you read what the context of that verse is before using it again.

                  "We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                    Gonna address yours first.
                    Yes. Because that's exactly what He did.
                    Not according to plenty who translated the original texts He didn't.

                    Why should it?
                    Because it goes against anything associated with love. The most sadistic human couldn't top eternal torment, no matter what form it would take.

                    Love can only be freely given.

                    It's either God, or separation from God.

                    That's what Hell/the lake of fire is. Separation.
                    True love sure, it's not reliant on threats which again should give you pause for thought. Ever read a "Chick tract"? "Turn or burn" doctrines emphasize horror, not love.

                    Where it comes to your interpretation of hell/the lake of fire then there's plenty others that disagree. In my former church there were differing views, from it being literal burning to separation and in some cases some form of physical and spiritual suffering combined among others.

                    The most loving thing God could do is allow His creation to choose between Him and separation from Him.
                    Not if fallible beings are subject to a designed eternity of suffering of some sort if they stumble in one finite life it isn't.

                    Why is it a threat, when being with God for eternity, and not being with God for eternity, are the ONLY two options?

                    God said make a choice.
                    Because everyone who doesn't believe in this snapshot of a life or have the wrong belief are deliberately making a choice to go to "hell"?

                    There's no in between.
                    Well, with your beliefs that would seem so. Doesn't mean your stance on the matter is actual truth though.

                    It's not.

                    It's making people face reality, which is that there are, in the end, only two options, either remain with God for eternity, or be separated from Him for all eternity.
                    Your beliefs are not "reality" for everyone else. You can no more prove them to be reality than the next person who has a completely different take on hell can prove theirs either.


                    God wants people to choose Him, not force them to be with Him.

                    It comes down to who says "thy will be done," the man, or God.
                    If you'd been born in a fundamentalist Islamic family you could well be saying the same in regards to Allah.

                    Of course.

                    The difference, though, is that I choose God, rather than separation from Him, so that now I am no longer identified by my sins, but identified in Christ, my Savior.

                    Those who are not, when they die, will have made their choice final.
                    As above. Do you see shades of grey at all amid the black and white?
                    Well this is fun isn't it?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                      Taking scripture out of context is sure to cause you problems.

                      I recommend you read what the context of that verse is before using it again.



                      http://www.godrules.net/library/weym...mouthjoh15.htm


                      "Faith is not an art. Faith is not an achievement. Faith is not a good work of which some may boast while others can excuse themselves with a shrug of the shoulders for not being capable of it. It is a decisive insight of faith itself that all of us are incapable of faith in ourselves, whether we think of its preparation, beginning, continuation, or completion." -Karl Barth-

                      Yup! God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by FineLinen View Post
                        http://www.godrules.net/library/weym...mouthjoh15.htm


                        "Faith is not an art. Faith is not an achievement. Faith is not a good work of which some may boast while others can excuse themselves with a shrug of the shoulders for not being capable of it. It is a decisive insight of faith itself that all of us are incapable of faith in ourselves, whether we think of its preparation, beginning, continuation, or completion." -Karl Barth-

                        Yup! God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta


                        Got scripture for that? Otherwise I don't really care.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post


                          Got scripture for that? Otherwise I don't really care.
                          Dear J.R.: No I do not have Scripture for that. LOL.

                          "The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed."

                          "You did not choose Me..." -The Lord Jesus Christ-

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FineLinen View Post
                            Dear J.R.: No I do not have Scripture for that.
                            Then I don't care.

                            LOL.
                            You laugh, but you're on your own way to hell.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post


                              Got scripture for that? Otherwise I don't really care.
                              Dear J.R.: No I do not have Scripture for that. LOL.

                              "The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed."

                              You did not choose Me... -The Lord Jesus Christ-

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FineLinen View Post
                                Dear J.R.: No I do not have Scripture for that. LOL.

                                "The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed."

                                You did not choose Me... -The Lord Jesus Christ-
                                |
                                V
                                Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                                Then I don't care.



                                You laugh, but you're on your own way to hell.

                                Comment

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