My view is based on exegetical issues in Scripture. You talk like a JW who trashes the trinity and hell by arguing for some Catholic, pagan conspiracy. Hogwash.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
My view is based on exegetical issues in Scripture. You talk like a JW who trashes the trinity and hell by arguing for some Catholic, pagan conspiracy. Hogwash.
Hi,
The issues are easily resolved by understanding that all verses fit that wicked people are thrown into the lake of fire and suffer in proportion to their wickedness until they are burnt up at the end of their punishment, or at least in a flame until thrown in.
The young children of the wicked will not even be raised from the dead.(if they died young)
The young children of the righteous will be, unless they be children resulting from unrighteousness.
LA
The issues are easily resolved by understanding that all verses fit that wicked people are thrown into the lake of fire and suffer in proportion to their wickedness until they are burnt up at the end of their punishment, or at least in a flame until thrown in.
The young children of the wicked will not even be raised from the dead.(if they died young)
The young children of the righteous will be, unless they be children resulting from unrighteousness.
LA
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
A 'god' unworthy of worship.......
A 'god' unworthy of worship.......
You limit your knowledge of 'God' to only the Bible, 'assuming' its the 'word of God'.
You also have not answered my last question of how condemning souls to an eternity of endless torment(punishment) is 'just', let alone moral for 'God'....see my last post here. - I also provide philosophical supports and inquiries into the nature of sin, punishment and their duration from different points of view.
ECT is an insane doctrine, let alone assuming 'God' is the one subjecting his creation to endless TORTURE.....to no end. Show how it is moral or just. Your 'God' is suppose to be Love....but condemns souls to eternal hellfire, a concious existence of eternal depression, suffering, agony......with no hope of salvation, repentance or reformation...which is Love's will!
As I've shared before,....as long as a soul has the ability and capacity to turn to God (respond and repent)....LOVE will never give up on that soul....and could not because of its very nature.
ECT is not sound, logical or reasonable, lay aside whether it is 'biblical' or not. Whether something is 'biblical' or not falls into the petty domain of 'interpretation' and 'personal bias' to which there is no end of argumention and debate. Principles, reason, intelligent consideration, and 'reality' are the essential precepts that are fundamental when weighing the counsels of 'God' or determining what writings are valid or not.
ECT is appalling, which is why many reject this 'caricature' of 'God', and the theology which espouses it. Furthermore the 'burden of proof' lies on you to prove 'God' can condemn souls to 'hell' for all eternity, where such conscious entities have no ability to repent or respond to God in order to be saved or progress to a better place. This sounds more like a 'hellish' God, never mind the different beliefs about 'hell'. A 'God' keeping souls alive in a state of eternal torment and suffering, to no end, purpose or resolve....is non-sensical.
pj
A 'god' unworthy of worship.......
You limit your knowledge of 'God' to only the Bible, 'assuming' its the 'word of God'.
You also have not answered my last question of how condemning souls to an eternity of endless torment(punishment) is 'just', let alone moral for 'God'....see my last post here. - I also provide philosophical supports and inquiries into the nature of sin, punishment and their duration from different points of view.
ECT is an insane doctrine, let alone assuming 'God' is the one subjecting his creation to endless TORTURE.....to no end. Show how it is moral or just. Your 'God' is suppose to be Love....but condemns souls to eternal hellfire, a concious existence of eternal depression, suffering, agony......with no hope of salvation, repentance or reformation...which is Love's will!
As I've shared before,....as long as a soul has the ability and capacity to turn to God (respond and repent)....LOVE will never give up on that soul....and could not because of its very nature.
ECT is not sound, logical or reasonable, lay aside whether it is 'biblical' or not. Whether something is 'biblical' or not falls into the petty domain of 'interpretation' and 'personal bias' to which there is no end of argumention and debate. Principles, reason, intelligent consideration, and 'reality' are the essential precepts that are fundamental when weighing the counsels of 'God' or determining what writings are valid or not.
ECT is appalling, which is why many reject this 'caricature' of 'God', and the theology which espouses it. Furthermore the 'burden of proof' lies on you to prove 'God' can condemn souls to 'hell' for all eternity, where such conscious entities have no ability to repent or respond to God in order to be saved or progress to a better place. This sounds more like a 'hellish' God, never mind the different beliefs about 'hell'. A 'God' keeping souls alive in a state of eternal torment and suffering, to no end, purpose or resolve....is non-sensical.
pj
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An everlasting punishment or an everlasting correction? I did not say how such a punishment would last forever. Being punished for theft might be an everlasting punishment, if one doesn't steal again.
Doormat
New member
You have not proven that "Ecclesiastes is the thinking of a fallen man away from God," and you have not given an example of something you can prove false in the book of Ecclesiastes.
Is life meaningless, meaningless, meaningless? Yes, life apart from God. God gives life purpose, but Solomon away from God despaired. Much of it is the musings of backslidden Solomon. This does not mean every word he said during this time is true or divine, didactic revelation.
I don't know anyone but you who disputes this face value reading of the book.
You seem to think that if the lies of Satan are recorded in Scripture that the Bible is not the Word of God.
I don't know what you are nit picking about?!
I don't know anyone but you who disputes this face value reading of the book.
You seem to think that if the lies of Satan are recorded in Scripture that the Bible is not the Word of God.
I don't know what you are nit picking about?!
Doormat
New member
Stop generalizing. What are the specific verses in Ecclesiastes that you believe are not true? Chapter and verse please.
The opening statements that life is meaningless, vanity, without purpose are not true from God's perspective. Eccl. 1:2 Is everything meaningless?! No!
Eccl. 1:18 wisdom and knowledge do not have to lead to sorrow and grief. Jesus was full of wisdom, knowledge, peace, and joy.
Eccl. 3:19 man's fate is not like the animals. They rot in the ground, but we can live with God forever. Man does have advantages in the image of God over animals, contrary to the literal statement in this verse.
Eccl. 3:22 NIV This is a hedonistic, not a biblical concept. We live for the glory of God and the next life, not just the pleasures of sin in this world.
Eccl. 4:4 NIV This is not true of the godly. It is a generalization that is not in line with other verses.
Many other verses are true and reflect insight, especially in the last chapter.
Job's Comforters and Job were rebuked for saying untrue things about God.
Satan told lies about God in the Garden.
The Bible records truth, lies, men's limited ideas that are not fully true, etc. You seem to think the whole book is divine revelation with no falsehoods. The Bible is without error in the sense that it is accurately recorded, not that Satan's lies are true like God's words.
keypurr
Well-known member
WOW, can you use that form of thinking on all scripture. Black is black, white is white and the Dead are DEAD. You should go to the SDA and the JW and learn something, for your in deep darkness. No one listens to you GR.
Your Eccl. proof text relates to life 'under the sun'. It says dead people no longer have awareness of life on earth. It does not say they are not aware in the after life or soul sleep, etc. You use it as a proof text out of context creating a contradiction with more didactic portions that go beyond a valid observation (there is no TV in heaven or hell, but there is consciousness there). It is the musings of a man away from God and is not explicit revelation like Paul in a didactic portion. The same is true of Prov. 8. This is a personification of wisdom, but cults proof text it (she calls out?) trying to apply it to Jesus and make Him created vs Creator. Genre does matter, as does context.
Verses?
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
That doesnt say that all babies unless their parents are saved go to hell and that only the children of the saved make it either.
There are loads of atheists that have christian parents, and vice versa.
:doh:
The fire in the Lake of Fire is not God; not to mention that passage is a metaphor.
That which will be dissolved is the heavens, the earth and the works therein.
That does not state their souls shall be burned up, but rather their works.
Do you not know what a metaphor is?
Doormat
New member
Lazy Afternoon said:
You are mistaken.
Exodus 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Exodus 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Deuteronomy 5:4,5 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount; )
Doormat said:
And according to verse 2 Peter 3:7, the wicked will be destroyed by fire, too, just like the heavens, earth, and the works.
Doormat said:
Since all material works will be burned up per 2 Peter 3:7-12, what works of yours do you believe will endure (not be burned up) so that you receive a reward? What works of yours are you building on the foundation of Christ?
Doormat said:
It's a metaphor for annihilation, just like 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Principles are eternal......
Principles are eternal......
:thumb:
As I've covered already and which no one has a sensible explanation, the belief that God condemns souls to an eternal punishment and eternity of torment, to no end, purpose or resolve....is immoral, unjust, insane. However they would rather believe a few passages literally as the 'word of God' than sound reasoning, which also brings up other philosophical problems and implications, revealing an 'inept' theology, a tryannical 'god'.
These ancient and reknown spirits speak agains ECT (compiled in The Spirit's Book) -
"Set yourselves, by every means in your power, to combat and to annihilate the idea of eternal punishment, which is a blasphemy against the justice and goodness of God, and the principal source of the skepticism, materialism, and indifferentism that have invaded the masses since their intelligence has begun to be developed. When once a mind has received enlightenment, in however slight a degree, the monstrous injustice of such an idea is immediately perceived; reason rejects it, and rarely fails to confound, in the same ostracism, the penalty against which it revolts and the God to whom that penalty is attributed. Hence the numberless ills which have burst upon you, and for which we come to bring you a remedy. The task we point out to you will be all the easier because the defenders of this belief have avoided giving a positive opinion in regard to it; neither the Councils nor the Fathers of the Church have definitely settled this weighty question. If Christ, according to the Evangelists and the literal interpretation of His allegorical utterances, threatens the guilty with a fire that is unquenchable, there is absolutely nothing in those utterances to prove that they are condemned to remain in that fire eternally.
"Hapless sheep that have gone astray! behold, advancing towards you, the Good Shepherd who, so far from intending to drive you forever from His presence, comes Himself to seek you, that He may lead you back to the fold! Prodigal children! renounce your voluntary exile, and turn your steps towards the paternal dwelling! Your Father, with arms already opened to receive you, is waiting to welcome you back to your home!"
-LAMENNAIS
"Wars of words! wars of words! has not enough blood been already shed for words, and must the fires of the stake he rekindled for them? Men dispute about the words 'eternal punishments,' 'everlasting burnings;' but do you not know that what you now understand by eternity was not understood in the same way by the ancients? Let the theologian consult the sources of his faith, and he, like the rest of you, will see that, in the Hebrew text, the word which the Greeks, the Latins, and the moderns, have translated as endless and irremissible punishment, has not the same meaning. Eternity of punishment corresponds to eternity of evil. Yes; so long as evil continues to exist among you, so long will punishment continue to exist; it is in this relative sense that the sacred texts should be interpreted. The eternity of punishments, therefore, is not absolute, but relative. Let a day come when all men shall have donned, through repentance, the robe of innocence, and, on that day, there will be no more weeping, wailing, or gnashing of teeth. Your human reason is, in truth, of narrow scope; but, such as it is, it is a gift of God, and there is no man of right feeling who, with the aid of that reason, can understand the eternity of punishment in any other sense. If we admit the eternity of punishment, we must also admit that evil will be eternal; but God alone is eternal, and He could not have created an eternal evil, without plucking from His attributes the most magnificent of them all, namely, His sovereign power; for he who creates an element destructive of his works is not sovereignty powerful. Plunge no more thy mournful glance, Oh human race! into the entrails of the earth, in search of chastisements! Weep, but hope; expiate, but take comfort in the thought of a God who is entirely loving, absolutely powerful, essentially just."
-PLATO
~*~*~
Again, far beyond the more limited and stringent theological interpretations built on particular verses constructed within a particular culture-context and metaphor....the principles of reason, spiritual intelligence, justice, mercy and wisdom prevail...and trump the inferior assumptions of feeble minds unillumined by such principles. 'God', that divine and glorious perfect Being holds an even higher standard than derived human concepts of the same values and moral laws, let alone being the quintessential Being of all goodness and wisdom.
Blog-portal on ECT here
pj
Principles are eternal......
:thumb:
As I've covered already and which no one has a sensible explanation, the belief that God condemns souls to an eternal punishment and eternity of torment, to no end, purpose or resolve....is immoral, unjust, insane. However they would rather believe a few passages literally as the 'word of God' than sound reasoning, which also brings up other philosophical problems and implications, revealing an 'inept' theology, a tryannical 'god'.
These ancient and reknown spirits speak agains ECT (compiled in The Spirit's Book) -
"Set yourselves, by every means in your power, to combat and to annihilate the idea of eternal punishment, which is a blasphemy against the justice and goodness of God, and the principal source of the skepticism, materialism, and indifferentism that have invaded the masses since their intelligence has begun to be developed. When once a mind has received enlightenment, in however slight a degree, the monstrous injustice of such an idea is immediately perceived; reason rejects it, and rarely fails to confound, in the same ostracism, the penalty against which it revolts and the God to whom that penalty is attributed. Hence the numberless ills which have burst upon you, and for which we come to bring you a remedy. The task we point out to you will be all the easier because the defenders of this belief have avoided giving a positive opinion in regard to it; neither the Councils nor the Fathers of the Church have definitely settled this weighty question. If Christ, according to the Evangelists and the literal interpretation of His allegorical utterances, threatens the guilty with a fire that is unquenchable, there is absolutely nothing in those utterances to prove that they are condemned to remain in that fire eternally.
"Hapless sheep that have gone astray! behold, advancing towards you, the Good Shepherd who, so far from intending to drive you forever from His presence, comes Himself to seek you, that He may lead you back to the fold! Prodigal children! renounce your voluntary exile, and turn your steps towards the paternal dwelling! Your Father, with arms already opened to receive you, is waiting to welcome you back to your home!"
-LAMENNAIS
"Wars of words! wars of words! has not enough blood been already shed for words, and must the fires of the stake he rekindled for them? Men dispute about the words 'eternal punishments,' 'everlasting burnings;' but do you not know that what you now understand by eternity was not understood in the same way by the ancients? Let the theologian consult the sources of his faith, and he, like the rest of you, will see that, in the Hebrew text, the word which the Greeks, the Latins, and the moderns, have translated as endless and irremissible punishment, has not the same meaning. Eternity of punishment corresponds to eternity of evil. Yes; so long as evil continues to exist among you, so long will punishment continue to exist; it is in this relative sense that the sacred texts should be interpreted. The eternity of punishments, therefore, is not absolute, but relative. Let a day come when all men shall have donned, through repentance, the robe of innocence, and, on that day, there will be no more weeping, wailing, or gnashing of teeth. Your human reason is, in truth, of narrow scope; but, such as it is, it is a gift of God, and there is no man of right feeling who, with the aid of that reason, can understand the eternity of punishment in any other sense. If we admit the eternity of punishment, we must also admit that evil will be eternal; but God alone is eternal, and He could not have created an eternal evil, without plucking from His attributes the most magnificent of them all, namely, His sovereign power; for he who creates an element destructive of his works is not sovereignty powerful. Plunge no more thy mournful glance, Oh human race! into the entrails of the earth, in search of chastisements! Weep, but hope; expiate, but take comfort in the thought of a God who is entirely loving, absolutely powerful, essentially just."
-PLATO
~*~*~
Again, far beyond the more limited and stringent theological interpretations built on particular verses constructed within a particular culture-context and metaphor....the principles of reason, spiritual intelligence, justice, mercy and wisdom prevail...and trump the inferior assumptions of feeble minds unillumined by such principles. 'God', that divine and glorious perfect Being holds an even higher standard than derived human concepts of the same values and moral laws, let alone being the quintessential Being of all goodness and wisdom.
Blog-portal on ECT here
pj
Last edited:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
meaningless suffering
meaningless suffering
If you worshipped 'God' you would recognize true principles which 'God' would not violate due to his nature. Again, we ask you how is 'God' condemning souls to an eternity of punishment and torments without relief....to no end....in any way 'just' or 'moral'? Especially when these souls are still 'living' and 'conscious' which means they still may have have the ability and capacity to repent and respond to 'God'...which would be Love's eternal will. What is Love's etrernal nature and will?
You are left with the conundrum of proving these souls CANNOT repent, and are either continuously choosing to reject salvation, or that God has condemned them regardless of their abilities....to an eternity of eternal depression and misery...essentially an eternally hopeless and purposeless existence.
ECT
pj
meaningless suffering
If you worshipped 'God' you would recognize true principles which 'God' would not violate due to his nature. Again, we ask you how is 'God' condemning souls to an eternity of punishment and torments without relief....to no end....in any way 'just' or 'moral'? Especially when these souls are still 'living' and 'conscious' which means they still may have have the ability and capacity to repent and respond to 'God'...which would be Love's eternal will. What is Love's etrernal nature and will?
You are left with the conundrum of proving these souls CANNOT repent, and are either continuously choosing to reject salvation, or that God has condemned them regardless of their abilities....to an eternity of eternal depression and misery...essentially an eternally hopeless and purposeless existence.
ECT
pj
I did not give you many verses because I doubt that you could understand them.
You think that the children of the wicked in Mat.ch 25 will all be passed over to the side of the righteous with their children, which is just a fairy tale of your mind.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
All verses need to be considered in order to arrive at the truth.
The only hope for Christians to see their offspring who die young is to be faithful to Christ to the end.
Your idea fuels unbelievers to abort, neglect or kill their children so they go to Heaven. Hitler would be pleased with you.
The false idea that God eternally tortures the unsaved in hell, causes people to turn their backs to such a "God".
LA