Gun Control

[CabinetMaker]

If you mean laws won't alter behavior and outcome, won't impact practices we view as destructive and violative of right, you're objectively, observably mistaken. By way of example, seatbelt laws and speeding laws have empirically impacted driving habits and saved lives.

It's equally easy to note that every state with the weakest gun laws here has the highest gun violence per 100k of its citizenry while the more stringent gun laws by state carry the lesser incidences. I've linked to those statistics in the 500 mass shooting thread, along with providing links and data on the dramatic disparity in gun violence and mass shooting here compared to our industrial-democratic cousins in Europe, where strong, universal gun laws are in place.

Laws can and do, in fact, prevent crimes. And in this case, at the very least, they can impact the degree of injury done and lives lost...In the case of guns it's not even that hard to see why. A man who is disturbed and angry within easy reach of an automatic rifle is much more dangerous and likely to harm a large number of people than is a man who is disturbed and angry and within easy reach of a hammer. We can impact how easy (and therefore how likely) it is for someone like that to harm a large number of people within a timeframe that makes it almost impossible to respond in time to stop him.

Laws are only as effective as peoples willingness to follow them. California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country yet they have had a terrorist shooting. FL had laws in place to prevent that shooter from getting a gun and the laws weren't followed and he got a gun. The Santa Fe shooter illegally took his fathers guns. The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother and took her guns. New York, Chicago and D.C. all have very restrictive gun laws and equally high gun violence rates. Texas has less restrictive and less shootings. There was a shooting on a Naval base that has VERY restrictive gun policies.

In any case, our Canadian and European don 't see the same level of gun violence. Canada's laws are not as restrictive as Europe's but the violence rates are less. But they have other problems. Have you seen this picture?

It is a sculpture that is made from over 100,000 knives confiscated by the British police, knives that had been used in crimes. Gun violence may be reduced but overall violence is not. There was the bridge attack in London as well as the shooting and truck attacks in France.

I don't think that your stats accurately represent what we have seen in the shooting histories. I don't see where more laws are going to stop shootings completely. Everytime I ask people for a list of laws that would have prevented a shooting I get a list of laws that ALREADY exist in most cases.

 

[Town Heretic]

Laws are only as effective as peoples willingness to follow them.

If you can't buy an assault weapon it doesn't matter that you don't like the law and don't want to follow it.

California has some of the strictest gun laws in the country yet they have had a terrorist shooting.

And some people who are on the pill will become pregnant.

FL had laws in place to prevent that shooter from getting a gun and the laws weren't followed and he got a gun.

Which would be far different from removing guns designed to kill large numbers of people from the marketplace.

New York, Chicago and D.C. all have very restrictive gun laws and equally high gun violence rates.

New York has the third lowest rate of gun deaths among the 50 states. Illinois is 8th in terms of gun laws, according to the Giffords Center, and 16th lowest in terms of gun violence and death per 100k of its citizens, despite having the outlier of Chicago, awash in violence and poverty for some time now, which impacts the figures.

Texas has less restrictive and less shootings. There was a shooting on a Naval base that has VERY restrictive gun policies.

Texas falls about where you'd expect it. It's about middle of the pack in terms of gun violence and about that in terms of gun restrictions.

In any case, our Canadian and European don 't see the same level of gun violence. Canada's laws are not as restrictive as Europe's but the violence rates are less. But they have other problems. Have you seen this picture?

Looking at the data compilation from the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (link) at 2016 and deaths per 100k:

US, 3.85
Canada, .28
Australia, .20
Denmark .14
United Kingdom, .07
Germany .12
France, .34
Italy, .38
Ireland, .17
Spain, .14

Sweden, .19
Switzerland, .25

Inside the U.S.? Alabama, with some of the weakest gun laws in the nation, averaged 6.76 deaths by firearm per 100k, outdone only by MS at 7.1 and LA at 8.33, both similarly situated in terms of laws on the books. New York, by comparison, had 2.89 deaths per 100k. And all of them are woefully over the European averages. Our safest state? Hawaii, coming in at 1.58 per 100k. It also has some of the stronger gun laws in the nation.

It is a sculpture that is made from over 100,000 knives confiscated by the British police, knives that had been used in crimes. Gun violence may be reduced but overall violence is not.

Demonstrate that empirically. And how many times did someone mass stab and murder dozens of people?

There was the bridge attack in London as well as the shooting and truck attacks in France.

Right. Every rule will have any number of exceptions. And measures can and are being taken to make that harder, but we can't live without transportation, so that's about all they can do. And we've had that here too, in places/states where guns were readily available.

I don't think that your stats accurately represent what we have seen in the shooting histories.

They aren't my stats and they reflect what we know from observing the numbers over time. Here's a link to a great site with all sorts of data fields to explore. It might take a minute or two to figure out how you want to see the data and locate what you're after, but the depth and breadth are impressive.

I don't see where more laws are going to stop shootings completely.

Me either. But we don't pass laws because we're sure they're going to completely stop anything. If that was the standard we likely wouldn't have a single law on the books.

Everytime I ask people for a list of laws that would have prevented a shooting I get a list of laws that ALREADY exist in most cases.

Then you're asking the wrong people.

 

[intojoy]

If you can't buy an assault weapon it doesn't matter that you don't like the law and don't want to follow it.


And some people who are on the pill will become pregnant.


Which would be far different from removing guns designed to kill large numbers of people from the marketplace.


New York has the third lowest rate of gun deaths among the 50 states. Illinois is 8th in terms of gun laws, according to the Giffords Center, and 16th lowest in terms of gun violence and death per 100k of its citizens, despite having the outlier of Chicago, awash in violence and poverty for some time now, which impacts the figures.


Texas falls about where you'd expect it. It's about middle of the pack in terms of gun violence and about that in terms of gun restrictions.


Looking at the data compilation from the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (link) at 2016 and deaths per 100k:

US, 3.85
Canada, .28
Australia, .20
Denmark .14
United Kingdom, .07
Germany .12
France, .34
Italy, .38
Ireland, .17
Spain, .14

Sweden, .19
Switzerland, .25

Inside the U.S.? Alabama, with some of the weakest gun laws in the nation, averaged 6.76 deaths by firearm per 100k, outdone only by MS at 7.1 and LA at 8.33, both similarly situated in terms of laws on the books. New York, by comparison, had 2.89 deaths per 100k. And all of them are woefully over the European averages. Our safest state? Hawaii, coming in at 1.58 per 100k. It also has some of the stronger gun laws in the nation.


Demonstrate that empirically. And how many times did someone mass stab and murder dozens of people?


Right. Every rule will have any number of exceptions. And measures can and are being taken to make that harder, but we can't live without transportation, so that's about all they can do. And we've had that here too, in places/states where guns were readily available.


They aren't my stats and they reflect what we know from observing the numbers over time. Here's a link to a great site with all sorts of data fields to explore. It might take a minute or two to figure out how you want to see the data and locate what you're after, but the depth and breadth are impressive.


Me either. But we don't pass laws because we're sure they're going to completely stop anything. If that was the standard we likely wouldn't have a single law on the books.


Then you're asking the wrong people.

4 per 100k? Great, nothing to worry about


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[Town Heretic]

4 per 100k? Great, nothing to worry about

And that was about as thorough an illustration of "effortless" as anyone could ask for. lain:

 

[JudgeRightly]

The problem isn't that there aren't enough laws controlling guns, it's that the punishments for crimes are not appropriate for the crimes committed. Period. And no, I'm not just talking about punishments for gun crimes. I'm talking about punishments for all crimes.

The Bible says that if you punish criminals swiftly and painfully, then there will not be a crime epidemic.

Prison was prohibited by God to use as punishment, and everywhere in the Bible where it describes a nation using prison as a form of punishment, it's always a wicked nation.

Execution, flogging, and restitution are the only three forms of punishment God authorized for punishing criminals.

If America (or any nation) were to return to Biblical standards of criminal justice, there would, overnight, be an almost 100% drop in crime.

As far as gun control is concerned, addressing a symptom of a larger issue does no good. In order to get rid of the problem and the resulting symptoms, one must address the problem.

The problem concerning gun control is the criminal court/"justice" system (and I put justice in quotes because it's not really a justice system, it's just a system) and law in general.

When a nation has bad laws, then they also have bad government, and high crime, and the law is in turn used by the criminals against the innocent.

Correct the law (by returning to the Biblical standard for morality), and you eliminate the symptoms along with the problem.

 

[Town Heretic]

The problem isn't that there aren't enough laws controlling guns, it's that the punishments for crimes are not appropriate for the crimes committed. Period. And no, I'm not just talking about punishments for gun crimes. I'm talking about punishments for all crimes.

The Bible says that if you punish criminals swiftly and painfully, then there will not be a crime epidemic.

What verses do you have in mind?

Prison was prohibited by God to use as punishment

26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment. Ezra 7:26

If America (or any nation) were to return to Biblical standards of criminal justice, there would, overnight, be an almost 100% drop in crime.

Given how often Israel and its kings failed the law and God I doubt that would be the case. If you want peace and justice you won't find anything like perfection of them here.

As far as gun control is concerned, addressing a symptom of a larger issue does no good. In order to get rid of the problem and the resulting symptoms, one must address the problem.

And that's like saying that until we conquer evil we shouldn't have law. Rather, knowing the heart of men we should make it harder for that heart to find its worst expression.

Gun laws work. Waiting on the perfection of men will not.

 

[intojoy]

And that was about as thorough an illustration of "effortless" as anyone could ask for. lain:

Town, please. Let me educate you. No one dies before their time gun, knife illegal hexican, negro with a sledge hammer.. death is universal bud. Get used to it.


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[Town Heretic]

Town, please. Let me educate you. No one dies before their time

So far, so little. Next time you get a nasty cut don't forget to ignore it.

gun, knife illegal hexican, negro with a sledge hammer..

Though mixing in the racist bit, especially the way the first part of that didn't even manage grammatically, really upped the ante.

death is universal bud. Get used to it.

And wrapping it up with a non sequitur was a bold choice too.

 

[intojoy]

So far, so little. Next time you get a nasty cut don't forget to ignore it.


Though mixing in the racist bit, especially the way the first part of that didn't even manage grammatically, really upped the ante.


And wrapping it up with a non sequitur was a bold choice too.

You have a set day upon which you will end and you are powerless to change it. Have a happy meal.


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[JudgeRightly]

What verses do you have in mind?

Then I saw the wicked buried, who had come and gone from the place of holiness, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done. This also is vanity.Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.Though a sinner does evil a hundred times, and his days are prolonged, yet I surely know that it will be well with those who fear God, who fear before Him.But it will not be well with the wicked; nor will he prolong his days, which are as a shadow, because he does not fear before God. - Ecclesiastes 8:10-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes8:10-13&version=NKJV

And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment. Ezra 7:26

First of all:

This is a copy of the letter that King Artaxerxes gave Ezra the priest, the scribe, expert in the words of the commandments of the Lord, and of His statutes to Israel: - Ezra 7:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezra7:11&version=NKJV

Second:

The entire Mosaic law NEVER says to imprison a criminal as punishment for their crime, for any of the crimes listed.

Prison was ONLY to be used to hold a criminal until a sentence could be passed, and the punishment was always retribution, flogging or other physical punishment, or death.

Given how often Israel and its kings failed the law and God I doubt that would be the case. If you want peace and justice you won't find anything like perfection of them here.

Trying to move the goalposts?

The goal is to reduce crime. You do that by having appropriate punishments for crimes, which deters criminals from committing the crimes in the first place, rather than trying to stop criminals when they've already set their hearts to do it, which doesn't work, because people are infinitely resourceful.

And that's like saying that until we conquer evil we shouldn't have law.

No, it's not. If you haven't noticed, I'm the one saying we need stronger punishments for crime. How you get "we shouldn't have law" out of that is beyond me.

Rather, knowing the heart of men we should make it harder for that heart to find its worst expression.

Like I just said, and as I have said elsewhere, making it so that a person "can't" commit a crime is ineffective, because people are infinitely resourceful, and will figure out workarounds. That's why you make it so that people WON'T commit crime.

Gun laws work. Waiting on the perfection of men will not.

AGAIN, moving the goalposts doesn't help your position.

Gun laws only address the symptoms of a larger problem. Address the justice system as a whole, which is the real failure, and the symptoms will go away naturally.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What verses do you have in mind?



26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment. Ezra 7:26

Given how often Israel and its kings failed the law and God I doubt that would be the case. If you want peace and justice you won't find anything like perfection of them here.


And that's like saying that until we conquer evil we shouldn't have law. Rather, knowing the heart of men we should make it harder for that heart to find its worst expression.

Gun laws work. Waiting on the perfection of men will not.

To address your post further, I recommend you watch this.

https://youtu.be/F6XTVuUP0Ho

And watch it all the way through, he addresses your attempt to move the goalposts.

 

[glorydaz]

Trying to move the goalposts?

The goal is to reduce crime. You do that by having appropriate punishments for crimes, which deters criminals from committing the crimes in the first place, rather than trying to stop criminals when they've already set their hearts to do it, which doesn't work, because people are infinitely resourceful.



Like I just said, and as I have said elsewhere, making it so that a person "can't" commit a crime is ineffective, because people are infinitely resourceful, and will figure out workarounds. That's why you make it so that people WON'T commit crime.

:thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

To address your post further, I recommend you watch this.

https://youtu.be/F6XTVuUP0Ho

And watch it all the way through, he addresses your attempt to move the goalposts.

Wow, that was awesome. Thanks for sharing JR.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Bob aired the audio for this last week on the air

Wow, that was awesome. Thanks for sharing JR.

 

[drbrumley]

To address your post further, I recommend you watch this.

https://youtu.be/F6XTVuUP0Ho

And watch it all the way through, he addresses your attempt to move the goalposts.

That was very very good. Exactly what I have been saying for 20 years. Great find JR. This is the Kent. gov correct?

 

[JudgeRightly]

That was very very good. Exactly what I have been saying for 20 years. Great find JR. This is the Kent. gov correct?

Yes, KY.

 

[drbrumley]

To address your post further, I recommend you watch this.

https://youtu.be/F6XTVuUP0Ho

And watch it all the way through, he addresses your attempt to move the goalposts.

I'm going to post that on facebook.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm going to post that on facebook.

I wanted to, but couldn't find a link to do that. :idunno:

 

[drbrumley]

I wanted to, but couldn't find a link to do that. :idunno:

There's a share feature on YouTube. Then a FB logo

 

[glorydaz]

There's a share feature on YouTube. Then a FB logo

Oh....Thanks doc.