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  • #61
    Originally posted by eider View Post
    It's just a pity that you're not angry over what so many are demonstrating about. In our cities here crowds have been gathering and ripping down statues of figures who were involved in slavery. Mr Colson's Statue got torn down and chucked in Bristol harbour. And others. Companies and sports clubs are renaming themselves to get rid of racist and evil titles that mean something else now.

    Ancient Rome and ancient Greece were built on slavery. They existed and thrived as cultures because of slavery. If you have any consistency you would call for a total eradication of them from your culture. I would suggest the first thing you do is tear down everything related to "Londinium" and "Brittania".

    As for the city of Bristol itself surely it should be razed to the ground to atone for its sinful past.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by ok doser View Post
      Terrible. If there are marches without permits AND against the very men and women that would help ensure nobody is hurt, there is no question that the result is going to be harm and loss of life. Worse? Against police that were nowhere near that incident in the South.
      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

      ? Yep

      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Lon View Post
        Not 'black lives,' lives matter. In cases where there is prejudism, whatever color is downtrodden, matters. This isn't about that, but about incredibly misguided behavior and poor judgement and duped masses without critical thinking skills.

        What I believe is different is 'what' lives matter to the "BLM" movement, antifa, and other attachments:
        A little clarification from you please.

        Are you criticizing the entire ideology solely upon the misguided, few who who opportunistically perpetuate violence in its name?

        Do you understand (or even care to empathize with) the ideology itself or would you rather associate,define and condemn it by the actions of those you noted above?
        _/\_

        Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by quip View Post

          A little clarification from you please.

          Are you criticizing the entire ideology on the misguided, opportunistic few?

          Do you understand (or even care to empathize with) the ideology or rather associate,define and condemn it by the action of those you noted above.
          Are you a spokesperson for BLM?

          Can you describe succinctly the ideology of BLM?

          Can you compare and contrast it to the ideology of Antifa?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by ok doser View Post

            Are you a spokesperson for BLM?

            Can you describe succinctly the ideology of BLM?

            Can you compare and contrast it to the ideology of Antifa?
            Those are perfect questions for Lon to address.
            _/\_

            Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by quip View Post

              A little clarification from you please.

              Are you criticizing the entire ideology solely upon the misguided, few who who opportunistically perpetuate violence in its name?

              Do you understand (or even care to empathize with) the ideology itself or would you rather associate,define and condemn it by the actions of those you noted above?
              I've made this clear in thread (just saying I'm clarifying again). I have problems with 'acting out' or anything associated with the harm caused by those participating in this movement. I've never had a problem with peaceable and legal assembly. People have a right to champion what is important to them. For me, It loses force when done for criminals, but there are plenty of people who have had their lives taken or endangered by prejudiced. So while I'm for movements, this one has taken a violent tenor and I'm against that specifically, especially when the very people who are supposed to be supported are the ones dying. I've never been for hot-headed anything, though I empathize greatly with the fathers and mothers of these children who've died. It would not bother me if they were able to find a good many of these protesters and bring them to court for a class-action suit for the loss of life. The first marches endangered lives. There is no reason to suspect these illegal marchers didn't know their actions were going to produce violence again. This particular movement is 'against' police so it'd be awkward to have them for law, order, and protection, but military could have stepped up to the plate, etc. to keep people safe. There was a large negligence and disregard by most in this present movement. Whenever it gets its act together and does this right, I'm in full support, but right now, I'm not, thus the thread title is against the movement 'at this present, illegal, and irresponsible' time.
              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

              ? Yep

              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Lon View Post
                People have a right to champion what is important to them. For me, It loses force when done for criminals.
                Why? Because it's not important to you?
                Can't the cause be entirely right and just despite the ne'er do wells?
                _/\_

                Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by quip View Post
                  Can't the cause be entirely right and just ....
                  Not without justice, which comes from God's Word. Criminals agitating for the right to be free from consequences for their actions is never going to be "entirely right and just".

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by quip View Post

                    Why? Because it's not important to you?
                    Can't the cause be entirely right and just despite the ne'er do wells?
                    No. These need permits otherwise they are illegal, whether they can all be arrested or not. Responsible people know first off, that they need these permits with city help and planning, the violence, damage, and looting are curtailed. I knew without this, that lives were going to be lost and property looted and damaged,so I was against these illegal marches and I'm very bothered children lost lives by the irresponsibility.

                    Ne'er-do-wells are disinvited to something very important and it needs level heads to make it that important or they will lose a lot of support needed. Solidarity will make a difference, ruining that solidarity will make this just an outburst rather than an important movement in history books.
                    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                    ? Yep

                    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Lon View Post
                      You are being distracted. Focus.


                      That wasn't the argument. The argument was that you shouldn't put a baby's life on the line for the death of a criminal. It doesn't matter what color the criminal was, it matters whether we go ahead and endanger lives, spread Covid, endanger lives, with criminals always on our shirt tails and whether we should illegally march with such hot tempers flairing, endangering lives, damaging property, lives, assaulting all police officers indiscriminately, endangering lives (and taking them) etc. etc.


                      Ah, "My" reporter.... Marginalizing, Eider, and obviously so.


                      Again, YOU focus and wake up. This is about whether purposefully endangering lives in double-digits (dead and many more harmed) over it, is the right thing to do in protest. Or even if there isn't some onus upon someone doing a crime, for their own demise, by choice of the conflict with the law. This isn't apartheid, it is someone willingly choosing crimes, and paying due consequences. Any time (unfortunately) anybody encounters a policeman, the potential for death by resistance is always part and parcel. I'm not saying its right, police need to be retrained to protect and serve and put their own lives on the line to accomplish that, but all this angry marching isn't taking responsibility for their family member's own very poor choices. THAT isn't worth a baby's life.



                      Again, focus. This is not a gun discussion.

                      You wake up. Little kids are dead. The first life lost was a 'black' life. This baby's life was a 'black life.' If your movement ('your' propositionally for anybody doing this) kills many black lives (and it did) does your movement REALLY support black lives mattering????

                      YOU wake up. And for whom? A criminal? I do want justice for the man. I DON'T want 13 mostly black lives gone for my actions!


                      These died in breaking laws! It doesn't mean I don't care, but those BABIES did NOTHING wrong! Nothing. Your values are warped when you can't get this through your thick head!

                      Quit asking. This isn't a gun thread.


                      Right, because you've binned me with supposed conservatives. It is a liberal ploy and untrue. My church, and most churches are involved in taking care of these kids. I've personally fed many of them from the food bank. You? No $, no volunteer work, likely. Are YOU the one that doesn't care and then project that dismal self-indulgence and lazy irresponsibility on conservatives???? Are you? Try not to be one of those dupes. It is heinous for its accusation, especially when most I ever talk to really are ugly and self-indulgent about it. I've given a lot (over $30k) for children in 3rd world countries. Not enough, but I'm not ashamed of this amount and wish it were a challenge to the rest of the world (at least those on TOL) to do the same and save some of these precious lives. I know our economics aren't good, but if I can do it, with 4 kids of my own, so can just about anybody.

                      It was inevitable. Getting the permits and doing this with a level head would have saved lives. I'm not against the movement, I already said as much, I'm against hotheads being involved in it and by association, all of them doing illegal demonstrations.


                      I'm not sure changing your opinion was ever on the books. That'd be a real accomplishment that forums seldom rise to. What I rather hope is that such will affect voting, and will affect seeing another's point of view, and that it might cool off hotter heads long enough to do things the right way so other lives are not lost, when people are calmed down and will do things through legal channels.
                      Lon, you seem to be calling out for the World to cease demonstrating for and on behalf of the BLM movement because some idiot kids who are allowed to keep military style rifles went to a road block with them and a girl got killed there.

                      The World's demonstrators did not support the killers there, just as it protests against racial bigotry. You can't stop it unless you, Lon, can convince the World that you can end bigoted arrogant hatred and harassment of people because of (either) their race, colour, religion, nationality, gender or any disabilities. So shout away for what you want........ but they won't listen. And to suggest that demonstrators are all wicked is just naive, frankly.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by eider View Post

                        Lon, you seem to be calling out for the World to cease demonstrating for and on behalf of the BLM movement because some idiot kids who are allowed to keep military style rifles went to a road block with them and a girl got killed there.

                        The World's demonstrators did not support the killers there, just as it protests against racial bigotry. You can't stop it unless you, Lon, can convince the World that you can end bigoted arrogant hatred and harassment of people because of (either) their race, colour, religion, nationality, gender or any disabilities. So shout away for what you want........ but they won't listen. And to suggest that demonstrators are all wicked is just naive, frankly.
                        Seems to me that that you're dismissing the BLM movement by way of a confirmation bias. You wholesale reject the movement by the actions of a few....you being white with no skin in the game, directly unaffected by its ideals, superficially critique it, disaffected and content in seeing only what you want to see.
                        _/\_

                        Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by quip View Post

                          Seems to me that that you're dismissing the BLM movement by way of a confirmation bias. You wholesale reject the movement by the actions of a few....you being white with no skin in the game, directly unaffected by its ideals, superficially critique it, disaffected and content in seeing only what you want to see.
                          It doesn't really matter what it seems to you. It matters whether or not 'what seems to you' is correct. It simply means there is nothing here for me to address other than correcting a lot of perceptions you have wrong.

                          Originally posted by eider View Post

                          Lon, you seem to be calling out for the World to cease demonstrating for and on behalf of the BLM movement because some idiot kids who are allowed to keep military style rifles went to a road block with them and a girl got killed there.

                          The World's demonstrators did not support the killers there, just as it protests against racial bigotry. You can't stop it unless you, Lon, can convince the World that you can end bigoted arrogant hatred and harassment of people because of (either) their race, colour, religion, nationality, gender or any disabilities. So shout away for what you want........ but they won't listen. And to suggest that demonstrators are all wicked is just naive, frankly.
                          Incorrect. All movements, not done orderly and lawfully, have resulted in the past with harm and loss of life. Any illegal movement after will also do the same regardless of what you'd like to say otherwise. All it needed/needs is level responsible heads, not hot-headed irresponsible ones.
                          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                          ? Yep

                          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Lon View Post

                            It doesn't really matter what it seems to you. It matters whether or not 'what seems to you' is correct. It simply means there is nothing here for me to address other than correcting a lot of perceptions you have wrong.

                            Then show me your evidence...allow me to review the error of my ways. Up until now I've seen nothing but biased rhetoric and bluster.
                            _/\_

                            Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by quip View Post


                              Then show me your evidence...allow me to review the error of my ways. Up until now I've seen nothing but biased rhetoric and bluster.
                              If that's all you've seen, then 1) you aren't listening well or 2) you didn't see it and if not, what else would I have to offer? There are links, other people weighing in (reporters, both sides) etc. Its not all me. The first person killed during these protests was black. The children, nearly babies at 8 and I believe 7, were black. Who is marching for whom??? Something doesn't add up. Be very careful whom you align with. Blacks? Good! Know, at the very least, the disparity. There is a HUGE disconnect. Somebody has to cry for these kids and the other adults who have died. That someone, I decided, was me, at least on TOL. That father who lost his baby girl cried "Black lives matter???" Someone needs to help carry his voice. He's a black man.
                              My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                              Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                              Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                              Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                              No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                              Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                              ? Yep

                              Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                              ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                              Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Lon View Post

                                If that's all you've seen, then 1) you aren't listening well or 2) you didn't see it and if not, what else would I have to offer? There are links, other people weighing in (reporters, both sides) etc. Its not all me. The first person killed during these protests was black. The children, nearly babies at 8 and I believe 7, were black. Who is marching for whom??? Something doesn't add up. Be very careful whom you align with. Blacks? Good! Know, at the very least, the disparity. There is a HUGE disconnect. Somebody has to cry for these kids and the other adults who have died. That someone, I decided, was me, at least on TOL. That father who lost his baby girl cried "Black lives matter???" Someone needs to help carry his voice. He's a black man.
                                Lon, you're one of those "Can't see the forest for the trees" kind of guy. You're disproportionately weighing the terrible actions of some against a broader landscape....a movement that is important to many people.

                                You're either responding this way via an unconscious bias or perhaps the sickening violence renders you myopic to larger concerns.

                                Either way, think in more broader terms ....and a touch less reactionary.
                                _/\_

                                Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

                                Comment

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