Your opinion on God’s Law.

[Choleric]

I prefer to leave their interaction the way the Bible describes it.

Good, so we agree that Jesus said salvation, not worship, was of the Jews. You had to be Jewish, worship in Jerusalem, thereby the Samaritan had to do works to be saved. Thank you for your concession.

These are all important verses.

Very important, they show you can't be a practicing jew and practicing christian. You are the person that claims to be a Jew and is not.

To be dead to the law is a different concept from what these verses are saying, even the verses you have pointed out.

Romans 7:1 NASB - 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

Romans 7:4 NASB - 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

You saying it doesn't make it so. I clearly showed that a saved christian is dead to the law. If you are not dead to the law, you can't be married to Christ. And since I am dead to the law of moses, I don't practice judaism, otherwise you are an adultress against Christ.

Observing God's Law and the law of the land in which you live is not going back under the law.

You are not under the law of moses in any way. The feasts, the levitical system in general is not relevant to a chrstian unless you are committing adultery against christ.

Many Christians who were never under the Law are told that if they obey the law they have fallen from grace and have gone back under the Law,

That is a verse you should likely pay close attention to. If you want to be a mosaic law keeper, you have to keep it all. Do you tithe your spices?

Christians, like the rest of the world, are not to be law breakers.

You are conflating two issues. We are to obey certain laws, just not the mosaic system. Loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God covers a great deal of common sense laws such as not stealing, killing or coveting etc. But none of the ceremonies or feasts are applicable. the mosaic and levitical system is what a christian dies to.

When you are raised to newness of life, you are under a different law, the law of liberty. It doesn't have new moons which governed all of the feast days. YOU ARE DEAD TO THE LAW.

No. I'm not joking. Race doesn't matter and we all belong to the human race if ever there is or was a race of people.

You are playing semantics. You can use whatever word you want, but being born of Jacob makes you a part of a lineage of people that most reasonable people refer to as a race. If you want to be so PC that you lose your common vernacular, you can call it family or whatever, but if you were not born into that race, you are not Jewish by lineage.

If you don't believe in a race, why did God not let the gentile proselytes into the inner court? Why did God separate the people in the Jewish religion by race? You should just concede this point. There were Jews by birth who were in the Judaic system, and there were gentiles by birth who were in the judaic system. Those are two different things.

Christianity is not opposed to law. You misunderstand the scriptures.

Just accept what the scriptures say without adding anything to it.

A Christian is dead to the law! How much more opposed can you be? Again, you are still expected to love God and your neighbor, which governs the whole of human behavior but you are not supposed to follow new moons or the feasts they govern. Paul calls them "weak and beggarly."

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

If you are reading scripture and understanding it correctly you are not wrong. That is what you must consider.

I read them again and it still says that I am dead to the law. Basic reading comprehension. I am glad you conceded the point.

Race is a concept people read into scripture. It is not derived from scripture.

You can call it what you want, but then you will have to explain why the Jewish race was treated differently at the temple than gentile converts to the religion of judaism. God apparently saw what every other person sees, a race of people.

Romans 10:4 NASB - 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

See post 492.

Great! So you agree that at one point our righteousness came from keeping the law:

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

and that is now ended based on Christ coming, and us dying to the law. this is what we call progress :thumb:

Why do I need to use this word, race? I was taught that if people are to be referred to as a race it is the whole human race. Do you know we are all descended from Adam and Eve? It doesn't mean people don't use this word, but we should be careful how we use it if we use it at all.

Again, God saw the races. That is why the gentile was treated differently at the temple. I realize the PC crowd has everybody terrified of using words like 'race" but it is a real thing. even God sees it. It's ok.

 

[Jacob]

Good, so we agree that Jesus said salvation, not worship, was of the Jews. You had to be Jewish, worship in Jerusalem, thereby the Samaritan had to do works to be saved. Thank you for your concession.

No Jew or Samaritan has ever been saved by works.

Very important, they show you can't be a practicing jew and practicing christian. You are the person that claims to be a Jew and is not.

I have been told I am a Jew, and I identify as Jewish even though I was born a Gentile. I am not Jewish by birth.

You saying it doesn't make it so. I clearly showed that a saved christian is dead to the law. If you are not dead to the law, you can't be married to Christ. And since I am dead to the law of moses, I don't practice judaism, otherwise you are an adultress against Christ.

You can be dead to the law and still obey God's commands. There is no problem here.

You are not under the law of moses in any way. The feasts, the levitical system in general is not relevant to a chrstian unless you are committing adultery against christ.

As a Christian I am not under the Law, but I can still obey God's commands, even God's commands found in the Law. I believe obeying God's commands is the obedience God wants.

That is a verse you should likely pay close attention to. If you want to be a mosaic law keeper, you have to keep it all. Do you tithe your spices?

I don't have any spices.

You are conflating two issues. We are to obey certain laws, just not the mosaic system. Loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God covers a great deal of common sense laws such as not stealing, killing or coveting etc. But none of the ceremonies or feasts are applicable. the mosaic and levitical system is what a christian dies to.

I believe you have an incorrect view here. You need to study what it means to be dead to the Law, Biblically.

When you are raised to newness of life, you are under a different law, the law of liberty. It doesn't have new moons which governed all of the feast days. YOU ARE DEAD TO THE LAW.

You are playing semantics. You can use whatever word you want, but being born of Jacob makes you a part of a lineage of people that most reasonable people refer to as a race. If you want to be so PC that you lose your common vernacular, you can call it family or whatever, but if you were not born into that race, you are not Jewish by lineage.

I am not Jewish by lineage does not mean I cannot be Jewish. I am Jewish by choice. That is the only option to me in being Jewish.

If you don't believe in a race, why did God not let the gentile proselytes into the inner court? Why did God separate the people in the Jewish religion by race? You should just concede this point. There were Jews by birth who were in the Judaic system, and there were gentiles by birth who were in the judaic system. Those are two different things.

I don't follow you. I don't see separation. I certainly would not call any separation a race issue.

A Christian is dead to the law! How much more opposed can you be? Again, you are still expected to love God and your neighbor, which governs the whole of human behavior but you are not supposed to follow new moons or the feasts they govern. Paul calls them "weak and beggarly."

? Opposed to what? I am not opposed to the Bible. I don't know what you think I am opposed to.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

There may be some confusion here. Observing the Law is not what makes a person saved and a Christian. Do you believe these verses are talking about Jewish law observance? Not everyone does.

I read them again and it still says that I am dead to the law. Basic reading comprehension. I am glad you conceded the point.

Nothing to concede. I'm not debating and I am not against you.

You can call it what you want, but then you will have to explain why the Jewish race was treated differently at the temple than gentile converts to the religion of judaism. God apparently saw what every other person sees, a race of people.

I'm not seeing what you are seeing.

Great! So you agree that at one point our righteousness came from keeping the law:

Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

and that is now ended based on Christ coming, and us dying to the law. this is what we call progress :thumb:

I don't see an end to the Law. My righteousness is in Christ. In Romans we see that righteousness is also the result of what one does.

Again, God saw the races. That is why the gentile was treated differently at the temple. I realize the PC crowd has everybody terrified of using words like 'race" but it is a real thing. even God sees it. It's ok.

I don't know what PC crowd you are talking about. I also have no idea what human race would be in reference to without there being race issues somehow somewhere. Meaning, HUMAN race not some other race. And what race might that be? I can only think that people want to get away from issues of race and I don't blame anyone for this. Man kind is different from animal kind I guess. There is nothing wrong with being a Jew. There should be nothing wrong with being a Jew by birth. And if a person is a Jew by choice there should be nothing wrong with that either. A Jew is a person who was either born of Abraham, Jacob (Israel), Judah, or of the kingdom of Judah or of Israel and the twelve tribes or a person who worships the one true God who is not a Gentile. Interesting translations on the following verse. Definitely a subject open for discussion.

Ephesians 2:11 NASB - 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--

Open for discussion even for Christians because of this verse.

1 Corinthians 10:32 NASB - 32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

The question is if believers are Gentiles or not Gentiles. Being a Jew is also another question.

 

[Jacob]

I have been told I am a Jew, and I identify as Jewish even though I was born a Gentile.

On this website I have been referred to as a Jew though I have said I am Jewish and Christian, both by choice.

Not on the internet I have been told I am a Ger or convert.

These are fine because I actually want to be a Jew even if I am not already.

I am a new covenant believer. I practice much of Judaism including the old covenant. I am a believer in Yeshua the Messiah. I am saved and born again as a Christian.

 

[Derf]

Jesus was an infallible witness, and knew her guilt. He didn't need any other witnesses. Yet, he came to replace the old temporal punishments and took them upon Himself.

P.S. BTW hi there again Jamie

This is likely OBE by now, and I probably shouldn't jump in, but...

Jesus's value as a witness depended on the topic and situation.

[Jhn 5:31 ESV] If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not true.

[Jhn 8:14 ESV] Jesus answered, "Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.

So therefore we recognize him as an infallible witness, due to his divine attributes, they didn't and wouldn't and probably shouldn't have, as that would be going against the law of God to do so. Jesus as God could have executed her on the spot, but God doesn't always do that either (thankfully).

 

[Choleric]

No Jew or Samaritan has ever been saved by works.

But that smaritan had to convert to judaism, worhip in jerusalem and be covered by the atonement. That is a fact. Not doing those things meant she could not be saved. This is basic truth.

I have been told I am a Jew, and I identify as Jewish even though I was born a Gentile. I am not Jewish by birth.

You aren't any more jewish than you are chinese. You either are or aren't.

You can be dead to the law and still obey God's commands. There is no problem here.

Then stop observing "days and moons" like you are told.

As a Christian I am not under the Law, but I can still obey God's commands, even God's commands found in the Law. I believe obeying God's commands is the obedience God wants.

You have to ignore half the new testament to believe that. You are dead to the law. You are under a NEW LAW. the new law is love god and love your neighbor. There is no place for the levitical system or feasts. You are committing adultery against Christ by doing that.

I don't have any spices.

So you don't have any salt or pepper or anything to season food with in your whole house? Sure you do. And if you are going to place yourself back under the "weak and beggarly" elements, you have to do all of it.

I believe you have an incorrect view here. You need to study what it means to be dead to the Law, Biblically.

Paul used a very easy to understand example in romans 7 to explain to you why and how you are dead to the law. You went into the grave with Christ and are raised with Him and are therefore dead to the law. It has no jurisdiction on you, SO THAT YOU CAN BE MARRIED TO CHRIST AND BE UNDER A NEW LAW. This is basic biblical christianity.

I am not Jewish by lineage does not mean I cannot be Jewish. I am Jewish by choice. That is the only option to me in being Jewish.

At least you finally admit you are not a jew by race (what you called lineage). Now you have to realize you cannot be a christian and be under the law of moses at the same time.

? Opposed to what? I am not opposed to the Bible. I don't know what you think I am opposed to.

You said the law was not opposed to Christianity. I said you can't be more opposed to it than being dead to it. And the reason you are dead to it is so you could marry another. You are either dead to the law and married to Christ, or married to the law, or you are married to Christ and committing adultery by going back to the law you are dead to.

There may be some confusion here. Observing the Law is not what makes a person saved and a Christian. Do you believe these verses are talking about Jewish law observance? Not everyone does.

Any person who reads the whole bible knows it is referring to the law of moses. That is what the entire book of Galatians is about. People going back to the feast days like you. All of these days were governed by the lunar cycle.

Nothing to concede. I'm not debating and I am not against you.

You are opposing yourself by denying the clear and easy to understand language of Romans 7 that teaches you died when Christ died and are no longer under the mosaic law.

I don't see an end to the Law. My righteousness is in Christ. In Romans we see that righteousness is also the result of what one does.

But in galatians we see that going back to the feasts is denying Christ.

 

[Jacob]

But that smaritan had to convert to judaism, worhip in jerusalem and be covered by the atonement. That is a fact. Not doing those things meant she could not be saved. This is basic truth.



You aren't any more jewish than you are chinese. You either are or aren't.



Then stop observing "days and moons" like you are told.



You have to ignore half the new testament to believe that. You are dead to the law. You are under a NEW LAW. the new law is love god and love your neighbor. There is no place for the levitical system or feasts. You are committing adultery against Christ by doing that.



So you don't have any salt or pepper or anything to season food with in your whole house? Sure you do. And if you are going to place yourself back under the "weak and beggarly" elements, you have to do all of it.


Paul used a very easy to understand example in romans 7 to explain to you why and how you are dead to the law. You went into the grave with Christ and are raised with Him and are therefore dead to the law. It has no jurisdiction on you, SO THAT YOU CAN BE MARRIED TO CHRIST AND BE UNDER A NEW LAW. This is basic biblical christianity.



At least you finally admit you are not a jew by race (what you called lineage). Now you have to realize you cannot be a christian and be under the law of moses at the same time.



You said the law was not opposed to Christianity. I said you can't be more opposed to it than being dead to it. And the reason you are dead to it is so you could marry another. You are either dead to the law and married to Christ, or married to the law, or you are married to Christ and committing adultery by going back to the law you are dead to.


Any person who reads the whole bible knows it is referring to the law of moses. That is what the entire book of Galatians is about. People going back to the feast days like you. All of these days were governed by the lunar cycle.



You are opposing yourself by denying the clear and easy to understand language of Romans 7 that teaches you died when Christ died and are no longer under the mosaic law.



But in galatians we see that going back to the feasts is denying Christ.

I believe you are incorrect. One reason is that the old covenant is about love of God and your neighbor, but you say this is a new law.

 

[Choleric]

I believe you are incorrect. One reason is that the old covenant is about love of God and your neighbor, but you say this is a new law.

Fact: A christian is dead to the law of moses. Romans 7:1-5, Acts 15:5-6
Fact: A Christian is under a new law. Gal 6:2, James 1:25
Fact: You are still supposed to love God and your neighbor Rom 13:9

The new law you are under is a new yet old law, to love God and love your neighbor.

1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.


It is not new, because it pre-dated the mosaic law. Loving God and your neighbor didn't start with moses. But it is new in that we are under a new "law of liberty". The laws are similar but we are not under Moses' law of ordinances. Like Abraham, we worship in spirit and truth

 

[Jacob]

Fact: A christian is dead to the law of moses. Romans 7:1-5, Acts 15:5-6
Fact: A Christian is under a new law. Gal 6:2, James 1:25
Fact: You are still supposed to love God and your neighbor Rom 13:9

The new law you are under is a new yet old law, to love God and love your neighbor.

1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.


It is not new, because it pre-dated the mosaic law. Loving God and your neighbor didn't start with moses. But it is new in that we are under a new "law of liberty". The laws are similar but we are not under Moses' law of ordinances. Like Abraham, we worship in spirit and truth

Christians are not under the Law. This is not the same thing as saying you should not observe the Law. Don't be a law-breaker. The law was added because of transgressions. Jesus came and forever settled your sin debt before God, in dying for you and your sins in that they have been paid for. The Law points out sin. If you have no sin you don't need the Law. Only Jesus had no sin. Would you say that now Christians have no sin as well? If so, in what way do they have no sin? Would you say Christians don't need the Law? If so, why (why would you say so or say this)? Do you have no sin or do you not sin any more? Hopefully this is true of you. But if it is why would you speak against the Law?

 

[Ben Masada]

Your opinion on God’s Law. Do you believe God’s Law is only for pointing out sin in a person’s life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe God’s Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?

My opinion on God's Law! I am sure you would find Jesus' opinion of much more importance. BTW, my opinion is the same as that of Jesus. He demonstrated his opinion by means of a parable; the parable of the Richman and Lazarus when he said that the only way to achieve salvation, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's in Luke 16:29-31. If you believe Jesus' opinion, how about taking it upon yourself?

 

[Choleric]

Christians are not under the Law.

THen why do you observe the feast days? Why would you go back to the beggarly elements that are fulfilled and surpassed by Christ?

This is not the same thing as saying you should not observe the Law.

nobody claimed you should but you are not under the mosaic system in any way.

Don't be a law-breaker. The law was added because of transgressions. Jesus came and forever settled your sin debt before God, in dying for you and your sins in that they have been paid for. The Law points out sin. If you have no sin you don't need the Law.

The law is for the lawless. Abraham loved God without the law. Do you need to law to love God jacob?

Only Jesus had no sin. Would you say that now Christians have no sin as well? If so, in what way do they have no sin?

WE all have sin. THe law is our mirror. It shows us our dirt but can't clean us up.

Would you say Christians don't need the Law? If so, why (why would you say so or say this)?

Abraham didn't need to law to love God. Neither did Isaac or Jacob. Why do you need it? Can't you love God and love your neighbor without somebody spelling it out for you in detail?

Do you have no sin or do you not sin any more? Hopefully this is true of you. But if it is why would you speak against the Law?

Nobody spoke against the law more than Paul. He called it weak and beggarly that couldn't make one righteous. God said we are dead to it, it has no more dominion over us. Why can't you just love God and believe Him? Why do you need to go back to your old husband "the law"? Is Christ not enough for you?

 

[Choleric]

My opinion on God's Law! I am sure you would find Jesus' opinion of much more importance. BTW, my opinion is the same as that of Jesus. He demonstrated his opinion by means of a parable; the parable of the Richman and Lazarus when he said that the only way to achieve salvation, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's in Luke 16:29-31. If you believe Jesus' opinion, how about taking it upon yourself?

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Jacob]

THen why do you observe the feast days? Why would you go back to the beggarly elements that are fulfilled and surpassed by Christ?



nobody claimed you should but you are not under the mosaic system in any way.



The law is for the lawless. Abraham loved God without the law. Do you need to law to love God jacob?



WE all have sin. THe law is our mirror. It shows us our dirt but can't clean us up.



Abraham didn't need to law to love God. Neither did Isaac or Jacob. Why do you need it? Can't you love God and love your neighbor without somebody spelling it out for you in detail?



Nobody spoke against the law more than Paul. He called it weak and beggarly that couldn't make one righteous. God said we are dead to it, it has no more dominion over us. Why can't you just love God and believe Him? Why do you need to go back to your old husband "the law"? Is Christ not enough for you?

Paul said the Law is good, and that the Law is good if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that it was not made for the righteous but for the sinner. If you have sinned the Law is for you to show you your sin. Do you obey God's commands?

 

[Jacob]

My opinion on God's Law! I am sure you would find Jesus' opinion of much more importance. BTW, my opinion is the same as that of Jesus. He demonstrated his opinion by means of a parable; the parable of the Richman and Lazarus when he said that the only way to achieve salvation, one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's in Luke 16:29-31. If you believe Jesus' opinion, how about taking it upon yourself?

To hear Moses and the Prophets, but it doesn't say for salvation. To be persueded to do what is right. To be persuaded as to God's goodness and the need or necessity of living according to His ways. Do you believe it is possible for someone to rise from the dead? You may if you listen to Moses and the Prophets come to recognize or understand Jesus to have risen from the dead, what Luke referred to of Jesus' parable, or His friend Lazarus (different) or others who have risen from the dead. The point is people would not listen to Moses and the Prophets. But they should, as should we.

 

[Ben Masada]

To hear Moses and the Prophets, but it doesn't say for salvation. To be persueded to do what is right. To be persuaded as to God's goodness and the need or necessity of living according to His ways. Do you believe it is possible for someone to rise from the dead? You may if you listen to Moses and the Prophets come to recognize or understand Jesus to have risen from the dead, what Luke referred to of Jesus' parable, or His friend Lazarus (different) or others who have risen from the dead. The point is people would not listen to Moses and the Prophets. But they should, as should we.

What did the Richman ask of Abraham? To send someone back to his family and warn them to convert and be saved of Hell. And what did Abraham - Jesus in the parable said: "If they don't listen to "Moses" aka the Law, there is nothing to be done to salve them from Hell. In other word, the point was salvation from Hell.

Regarding your question if I believe possible for the dead to rise from the dead, read 2 Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14 and Job 7:9 and if you are spiritually honest, you will also see the truth that once dead, no one will ever return from the dead.

 

[Ben Masada]

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

If Jesus had said that he was the end of the Law, how could he contradict himself by saying that to listen to "Moses" aka the Law was the only way to escape Hell? (Luke 1629-31) Any one can see that Paul was lying to promote his policy of Replacement Theology.

 

[Jacob]

What did the Richman ask of Abraham? To send someone back to his family and warn them to convert and be saved of Hell. And what did Abraham - Jesus in the parable said: "If they don't listen to "Moses" aka the Law, there is nothing to be done to salve them from Hell. In other word, the point was salvation from Hell.

Regarding your question if I believe possible for the dead to rise from the dead, read 2 Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14 and Job 7:9 and if you are spiritually honest, you will also see the truth that once dead, no one will ever return from the dead.

Each of these verses has a context, as with verses about resurrection or rising from the dead.

 

[Derf]

If Jesus had said that he was the end of the Law, how could he contradict himself by saying that to listen to "Moses" aka the Law was the only way to escape Hell? (Luke 1629-31) Any one can see that Paul was lying to promote his policy of Replacement Theology.

I can't see that Paul was lying.

 

[Choleric]

I can't see that Paul was lying.

Of course he wasn't lying. Like all heretics, Ben has placed himself above the Word of God and has become his own authority. That is the beginning and end of his problem and is why he will spend eternity in a lake of fire.

 

[Hawkins]

How many of your trespasses are not forgiven?

Do you mean that we don't need Jesus?

If God choose to forgive at will, Jesus becomes a dummy. It that what you want to say?

 

[Ben Masada]

I can't see that Paul was lying.

Perhaps because of Christian preconceived notions or the gospel you teach is the gospel of Paul and not that of Jesus.