When does the biblical day begin?

C

clefty

New member
chair said:
A Talmudic argument. You are doing well.
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now even logic is jewish? It doesn't end with you does it...

So if it doesn't say that a holiday or Sabbath starts in the evening- proof by absence. If it does say- then it must be an exception to the general rule. Seems you have all bases covered here.
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Covered in Genesis before holidays were even established...the cycle of the day was clear...the day turned into evening into night into morning--now completed it is numbered

Like a birthday it is lived then numbered...like a mile is travelled then counted...
 
C

chair

Well-known member
clefty said:
So He lied when He clarified that the Sabbath was made for man...not just Jews or Israel...

The irony that of all the commandments it is the only one to articulate it is also given to the non Israelite...and even animals
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Let's actually look at the verses:
Exodus 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:12 Then the Lord said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. 15 For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

The only foreigners mentioned are those living in "your towns"

clefty said:
Sabbath was instituted at creation...adam was not a jew nor an israelite...
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No. It says that God created the Earth in 6 days, but the actual Sabbath was instituted later.
 
C

clefty

New member
chair said:
Let's actually look at the verses:
Exodus 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:12 Then the Lord said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. 15 For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

The only foreigners mentioned are those living in "your towns"
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And still you invented shabbos goy...lol

Now interesting to note that Sabbath was the only one given to them yes?...the other nine did not apply?

Or because it was already a memorial to creation established before these Hebrews stumbled into the wilderness...




No. It says that God created the Earth in 6 days, but the actual Sabbath was instituted later.
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later?...as in a day?

It was established for man about the same time marriage was...

You claim marriage as just for jews too?...or least just for those living in jewish towns?

So He lied when He affirmed Sabbath we made for man?
 
W

Wick Stick

Well-known member
chair said:
I know that Christians want to be the True Israel (TM). And they want to have that without any obligations.

I know you are convinced of this- but seriously: do you expect to convince a Jew of this?
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No, I don't... if history has taught us anything, it is that the true heart of Judaism is debate. You disappoint me in this respect. I had thought I would get a real argument here, but instead you simply dismiss everything altogether.

I suppose that means you cannot answer.

Jarrod
 
C

chair

Well-known member
Wick Stick said:
No, I don't... if history has taught us anything, it is that the true heart of Judaism is debate. You disappoint me in this respect. I had thought I would get a real argument here, but instead you simply dismiss everything altogether.

I suppose that means you cannot answer.

Jarrod
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Answer what, exactly?

Let's go back a step- as far as I could tell you were arguing that God had rejected the original Jews, and was open to adopt "new Jews". If that is not what you meant- then explain.
 
C

clefty

New member
chair said:
Answer what, exactly?

Let's go back a step- as far as I could tell you were arguing that God had rejected the original Jews, and was open to adopt "new Jews". If that is not what you meant- then explain.
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Jews were part of Israel as His bride...she became a whore so her Husband put her away...when the Jews returned for the second temple era He came again to her His bride...they killed Him literally and thus rejected Him and ended their marriage contract/covenantand...she is free to sleep with or marry whoever she wants...This Husband however rose from the dead and now is looking for another bride...faithful and obedient to Him...His taste in woman BTW hasn’t changed as He looks for one similar to His first wife...that is to say the same conditions remain for the new wife as the old...

The old wife is busy jealously counterfeiting to steal and deceive and be an imposter’s role as a legitimate wife still/again...He knows His own
 
W

Wick Stick

Well-known member
chair said:
Let's go back a step- as far as I could tell you were arguing that God had rejected the original Jews, and was open to adopt "new Jews". If that is not what you meant- then explain.
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No, it isn't replacement theology.

For some reason everyone seems to have lost sight of the fact that the Scriptures deal with two countries; not one. "Jews" encompasses only one of the two.

I will recap:

In the Scriptures, God does not deal with the two countries together. They have separate prophets, separate governments, and separate judgments.

The northern country was divorced by God. The southern was not.

The northern country was destroyed. The southern was carried away into captivity - not the same thing.

The northern kingdom literally ceased to exist. The southern kingdom has been a people perpetually for over 3 millennia now. Do you see the difference between the two?

The old prophets say that the northern country will be brought back to life - resurrected. (Ezekiel 37, Hosea 2, etc)

What most people have failed to grasp, is that the New Testament (and Jesus ministry in particular) is not about the Jews, it's about the OTHER country, the northern country.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Lost House of Israel includes zero Jews. By definition, it is Ephraim and not Judah. In the New Testament, we see Jesus was from the north, and His travels and teachings were primarily in that area, and to the north and east. He went to Perea and Trans-Jordan and Galilee; basically everywhere except Judah. (His trips to Jerusalem were NOT for teaching, but rather they were the mandated pilgrimages for the feasts, which it why it records that He went "in secret.")

Now, keeping in mind that the Lost House is prophesied to be revived, all the New Testament talk of "resurrection" suddenly starts to make sense.

The Lost House is scattered everywhere. Jesus sends messengers (that is what the prophet says will happen), to find them where they are - dead among the goyim - and to revive them.

For that revival to happen, they must be re-adopted. That is what baptism is - an adoption ceremony. It is not just a typical ritual purification.

Do you follow? Shall I continue?
 
C

chair

Well-known member
Wick Stick said:
...
Do you follow? Shall I continue?
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I follow, but you are mistaken. The term "Israel", though at one point meant the Northern tribes as opposed to the Southern ones, it originally meant all of Israel- all 12 tribes ( there are many examples of this- read Exodus 14, if you don't trust me on this). And it reverted to that use later on. Check the second chapter of Ezra, and you will see what I mean.
 
W

Wick Stick

Well-known member
chair said:
The term "Israel", though at one point meant the Northern tribes as opposed to the Southern ones, it originally meant all of Israel- all 12 tribes ( there are many examples of this- read Exodus 14, if you don't trust me on this).
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This is true.

chair said:
And it reverted to that use later on. Check the second chapter of Ezra, and you will see what I mean.
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The problem is that "Israel" is not the term in question. The term in question is "House of Israel," as used by the prophet Jeremiah in direct contrast to "House of Judah" (chapter 3). The New Testament takes it a step further, calling it the "Lost House of Israel."

I am not making a simple mistake. I am following the prophets precisely the way the 1st century Jews did. They were expecting that the House of Israel (which did not so much as exist) was to be revived. Jesus stated mission was to bring about this revival.

You may find that to be misguided, perhaps, but it is no mistake. It is/was very intentional.
 
C

clefty

New member
Wick Stick said:
This is true.


The problem is that "Israel" is not the term in question. The term in question is "House of Israel," as used by the prophet Jeremiah in direct contrast to "House of Judah" (chapter 3). The New Testament takes it a step further, calling it the "Lost House of Israel."

I am not making a simple mistake. I am following the prophets precisely the way the 1st century Jews did. They were expecting that the House of Israel (which did not so much as exist) was to be revived. Jesus stated mission was to bring about this revival.

You may find that to be misguided, perhaps, but it is no mistake. It is/was very intentional.
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And eventually all who worship in His house of prayer for all nations from Sabbath to Sabbath will be known as His people...Israel...Here are they they keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF His Son...

And His faith was not Judaism BTW...
 
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C

chair

Well-known member
Wick Stick said:
This is true.


The problem is that "Israel" is not the term in question. The term in question is "House of Israel," as used by the prophet Jeremiah in direct contrast to "House of Judah" (chapter 3). The New Testament takes it a step further, calling it the "Lost House of Israel."

I am not making a simple mistake. I am following the prophets precisely the way the 1st century Jews did. They were expecting that the House of Israel (which did not so much as exist) was to be revived. Jesus stated mission was to bring about this revival.

You may find that to be misguided, perhaps, but it is no mistake. It is/was very intentional.
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"House of Israel" refers to the northern tribes when it is contrasted with House of Judah. At other times it means all of Israel:
Exodus 40:37
Leviticus 10:5
Psalm 135:19 (here House of Israel contrasts with the House of Aaron)
Numbers 20:29
 
C

clefty

New member
chair said:
I follow, but you are mistaken. The term "Israel", though at one point meant the Northern tribes as opposed to the Southern ones, it originally meant all of Israel- all 12 tribes ( there are many examples of this- read Exodus 14, if you don't trust me on this). And it reverted to that use later on. Check the second chapter of Ezra, and you will see what I mean.
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The tribe of Judah caused the other tribes to fall into idolatry as they refused to pay the temple tax the jews charged but rather stayed at home to worship...This also created a civil war between israel and judah and a weakened Israel was finally destroyed...
 
C

clefty

New member
chair said:
You could just answer, rather than play silly games. We were discussing the "Old" Testament until now.
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So on to the New Testament?


Acts 4:3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening.


"Next day" referring to the daylight portion of the same day...yes?

Or...
 
C

chair

Well-known member
clefty said:
So on to the New Testament?


Acts 4:3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening.


"Next day" referring to the daylight portion of the same day...yes?

Or...
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There is a problem with using these types of verses to prove that the day starts in the morning. Does "Tomorrow" mean the next day (i.e. if today is Tuesday, Tomorrow is Wednesday), or does it mean "the next morning." This is made more complicated by the fact that we are talking about ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, while we are usually looking at translations.

There is also a historical issue here. You are postulating that in the first century AD Jews started counting days at sunrise. Today we start our days at sunset. This is a huge change. When did it happen? Why? Where is some mention of this in Jewish sources? Roman sources? Church sources?

Speaking of which- when does the traditional Christian liturgical day start?
 
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