When does the biblical day begin?

[clefty]

There is a problem with using these types of verses to prove that the day starts in the morning. Does "Tomorrow" mean the next day (i.e. if today is Tuesday, Tomorrow is Wednesday), or does it mean "the next morning." This is made more complicated by the fact that we are talking about ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, while we are usually looking at translations.

there is a problem for you as tomorrow is the next morning

There is also a historical issue here. You are postulating that in the first century AD Jews started counting days at sunrise. Today we start our days at sunset. This is a huge change. When did it happen? Why? Where is some mention of this in Jewish sources? Roman sources? Church sources?

already posted some historical sources in this thread...the when the whys are discussed as well...

Speaking of which- when does the traditional Christian liturgical day start?

Interesting they admit following "jewish custom" and not biblical...it's ok peer pressure can be called sacred tradition but if not supported biblically it remains man's tradition

 

[chair]

there is a problem for you as tomorrow is the next morning

and the proof of that is...?

already posted some historical sources in this thread...the when the whys are discussed as well...

Please point to specific posts, or repeat the more important ones. Please note that I am not referring to when the day started in genesis or in the time of Moses. You are claiming that the day started in the the morning in the time of Jesus, 1,000 years after Moses, and changed afterwards. Where is the evidence for this? Why did it change?

 

[clefty]

and the proof of that is...?

"Acts 4:3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening."

I dont have a problem with this the way it is...you do

Please point to specific posts, or repeat the more important ones. Please note that I am not referring to when the day started in genesis or in the time of Moses. You are claiming that the day started in the the morning in the time of Jesus, 1,000 years after Moses, and changed afterwards. Where is the evidence for this? Why did it change?

If it is important to you...you can look it up...as I did...studied researched and prayed over it for abit...

historians have the change to evening to evening as after jews returned from babylon...apparently in babylon the day ended at evening...again man's tradition...

But in the Bible it is Light was called day...and then there was an evening...night and morning-then the day counted as complete

 

[chair]

"Acts 4:3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening."

I dont have a problem with this the way it is...you do

I don't have any problem with this. I am only pointing out that the meaning isn't as clear as you think.

If it is important to you...you can look it up...as I did...studied researched and prayed over it for abit...

I was asking for your help in locating your posts. If you don't want to help, or are afraid that the evidence you'll show me is too weak- fine.

historians have the change to evening to evening as after jews returned from babylon...apparently in babylon the day ended at evening...again man's tradition...
...

Two points here:
1. Which historians? Do they have proof- or do they speculate?
2. Jesus lived 600 years after the return from Babylon. When did the day start in his time? Think about it.

 

[clefty]

I don't have any problem with this. I am only pointing out that the meaning isn't as clear as you think.

you do notice it doesnt say they were put into custody until the next daylight...or morning...or light of day?...is why you should have a problem with it...if evening begins the next day then it should have been written they were kept until the light of the same day...

I was asking for your help in locating your posts. If you don't want to help, or are afraid that the evidence you'll show me is too weak- fine.

that is not what you need help with...

It is there and other places you can google...but if you consider it weak then keep it to scripture

and answer me why the passover of the 14th when the lambs are slain according to you actually occurs at midnight on the 15th the day of unleavened bread by your evening to evening reckoning...

Two points here:
1. Which historians? Do they have proof- or do they speculate?
2. Jesus lived 600 years after the return from Babylon. When did the day start in his time? Think about it.

Fine ignore historians...except those defending your jewish traditions...lol

Back to scripture:

John 6...verses 16,17 we have it already evening going into darkness...

And then Verse 22 it is written the "following day" NOT morning of the SAME day...or SAME day at dawn...or even, later, by the light of the sun...

Now think about that...

Let there be Light...then evening...morning...the day counted completed

 

[chair]

you do notice it doesnt say they were put into custody until the next daylight...or morning...or light of day?...is why you should have a problem with it...if evening begins the next day then it should have been written they were kept until the light of the same day...

You are depending on translations, which use the English word "tomorrow".

that is not what you need help with...

It is there and other places you can google...but if you consider it weak then keep it to scripture

So I gather that you don't have any relevant posts to refer me to. Understood.

and answer me why the passover of the 14th when the lambs are slain according to you actually occurs at midnight on the 15th the day of unleavened bread by your evening to evening reckoning...

Lamb slaughtered on the evening of the 14th, first born died that might, which was the 15th. Where does it say "passover of the 14th "?

Fine ignore historians...except those defending your jewish traditions...lol

Historians often speculate. One needs to sort out facts from speculation.

Back to scripture:

John 6...verses 16,17 we have it already evening going into darkness...

And then Verse 22 it is written the "following day" NOT morning of the SAME day...or SAME day at dawn...or even, later, by the light of the sun...

Now think about that...

Again, you are completely dependent on translations for your understanding of these texts. It may not be as simple as you think.


You have deliberately ignored one of my points. You said that

historians have the change to evening to evening as after jews returned from babylon...apparently in babylon the day ended at evening...again man's tradition...

Jesus lived 600 years after the return from Babylon. When did the day start in his time? Now it is your turn to deal with the historians.

 

[clefty]

You are depending on translations, which use the English word "tomorrow".

the word tomorrow wasn't even used in this text...

So I gather that you don't have any relevant posts to refer me to. Understood.

understood?...you reject what is understandable in scripture...why should I waste further time with you? Your hardness of heart and stiff neckned attitude is all too understood and traditional...

Lamb slaughtered on the evening of the 14th, first born died that might, which was the 15th. Where does it say "passover of the 14th "?

wow...really?

you do reject scripture for your tradition...He was right about you making void His for your own...

Historians often speculate. One needs to sort out facts from speculation.

yup and fact: yours reject scripture...

Look how yours must twist and distort:

" in a certain sense, the celebration of the 15th is considered to be an extension of the 14th. How so? With regard to sacrifices, the verse states, “And the flesh of his thanksgiving peace offering shall be eaten on the day it is offered up; he shall not leave any of it over until morning.”4 In other words, if you were given one day to eat an offering, the day consisted of the daytime followed by its night (unlike all other purposes, for which Jewish calendar days consist of the night followed by the day). Thus, as far as sacrifices are concerned, the night after a sacrifice is brought is an extension of the day it is brought.5"

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/pass...hy-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm

Please note the footnote 5 is NOT scripture...

Again, you are completely dependent on translations for your understanding of these texts. It may not be as simple as you think.

simple enough...Light created...called Day...and then there was evening...morning...day complete

Simple.

You have deliberately ignored one of my points. You said that


Jesus lived 600 years after the return from Babylon. When did the day start in his time? Now it is your turn to deal with the historians.

I showed you in this passage of John...and also Acts...

Now you show me otherwise...

 

[chair]

..why should I waste further time with you?

here we agree

 

[clefty]

here we agree

Not just on that point either...we both agree you follow jewish tradition...

I wish to follow scripture...

Going back to old posts is a waste of time to do for you what you can do for yourself...

As for this new information revealing the logic jews use to twist scripture:

“Thus, as far as sacrifices are concerned, the night after a sacrifice is brought is an extension of the day it is brought.5” ibid

EVERY day there was an evening sacrifice thus as far as we are concerned the night after a sacrifice is brought is indeed an extension of the day it is brought...

The irony...your tradition is still at it...

This is yours used to make void His...

 

[chair]

Not just on that point either...we both agree you follow jewish tradition...

I wish to follow scripture...

Going back to old posts is a waste of time to do for you what you can do for yourself...

As for this new information revealing the logic jews use to twist scripture:

“Thus, as far as sacrifices are concerned, the night after a sacrifice is brought is an extension of the day it is brought.5” ibid

EVERY day there was an evening sacrifice thus as far as we are concerned the night after a sacrifice is brought is indeed an extension of the day it is brought...

The irony...your tradition is still at it...

This is yours used to make void His...

You claim that the Jewish day started at sunrise originally, and changed to sunset during the Babylonian captivity. Since Jesus lived long after the Babylonian captivity, he would have considered sunset to be the beginning of a day.

For reasons only you know, you haven't responded to this point, though you seem to do well when it comes to insults. There is no point in trying to discuss something with a person who doesn't respond. Why should I waste further time with you?

I even regret writing this post- I should have just ignored your last posts.

 

[clefty]

You claim that the Jewish day started at sunrise originally, and changed to sunset during the Babylonian captivity. Since Jesus lived long after the Babylonian captivity, he would have considered sunset to be the beginning of a day.

I claim that Jews claim that the day begins at sunset...researching it I realized something was off...I found and posted historians who claim the change was made after Babylonian time...some historians say even later

From scripture it is hard to tell what He considered the beginning but it seems the writer’s still kept it as next day being the morning not evening...

Is why I am studying it...interested in what scripture says rather than what jews say...or say it says

For reasons only you know, you haven't responded to this point, though you seem to do well when it comes to insults. There is no point in trying to discuss something with a person who doesn't respond. Why should I waste further time with you?

I even regret writing this post- I should have just ignored your last posts.

Buck up buddy...much still to study and discuss between what yours say and what is written...

 

[clefty]

I should have just ignored your last posts.

Well here is something...by a rabbi no less...

https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/...sics/11-29-11-calendar/counting-day-night.pdf

It's articles like this that make me wonder why these views are not more known or held by other jews...what is going on?

 

[clefty]

I should have just ignored your last posts.

Here is a clue to how the apostle reckoned time...

Mark Chapter 4. Here we find (Yahusha) teaching throughout the course of a day, and in verse 35 we read: "And the SAME DAY, when the EVEN WAS COME,
he saith unto them, Let us pass over unto the other side." Based on the standard teaching, this "EVEN" should NOT be the "SAME DAY", but it should be the NEXT DAY if a NEW DAY begins at EVENING.

http://www.yahuahkingdom.com/uploads/8/3/6/9/8369443/sabbath_begins.pdf

Some more historical sources there...

 

[daqq]

The Biblical day begins when I roll out of bed -

That is one of the best answers I have seen . . . :chuckle:

When you awaken the greater light rises.
When you fall asleep the lesser light takes over and rules the night, (and plays movies).

 

[clefty]

That is one of the best answers I have seen . . . :chuckle:

Certainly better than a noon time start of day...

John 20 has them running to the already empty tomb in the morning...Mary seeing Him and telling the disciples....and then verse 19 the SAME day at evening He appears to the disciples...not the same day He rose BTW...but the same day Mary saw Him...so a new day didn't start at noon...as the walk to Emmaus was the same day late into the setting sun

 

[daqq]

Certainly better than a noon time start of day...

John 20 has them running to the already empty tomb in the morning...Mary seeing Him and telling the disciples....and then verse 19 the SAME day at evening He appears to the disciples...not the same day He rose BTW...but the same day Mary saw Him...so a new day didn't start at noon...as the walk to Emmaus was the same day late into the setting sun

I suppose it could be, however, I have no doubt the shabuim yamim are evening-to-morning and Shabbat is also based on the same according to Exodus 16. How do you suppose that Moses knew the "flesh" would come first and that it would be in the evening, (first, before the morning)? The Father does not mention those things in Exodus 16 before Moses makes the claim; so how did Moses know? It is because of the phrase "ba-yom ha-shishi", and that is significant because the sixth day of the creation is the only day, (of the six days of creation), containing the article in that manner, (yom ha-shishi). That means that Moses knows what he knows from what is already stated in Gen 1:31.

Exodus 16:3-8 KJV
3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.
4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day ["bayom hashishi"] they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.
6 And Moses and Aaron said unto all the children of Israel, At even, then ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the land of Egypt:
7 And in the morning, then ye shall see the glory of the LORD; for that he heareth your murmurings against the LORD: and what are we, that ye murmur against us?
8 And Moses said, This shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but against the LORD.

See what I mean? The Father said nothing in this passage about evening, (or "flesh"), but Moses knows it from what was said to him because yom hashishi is a direct reference to Genesis 1:31.

 

[chair]

Well here is something...by a rabbi no less...

https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/...sics/11-29-11-calendar/counting-day-night.pdf

It's articles like this that make me wonder why these views are not more known or held by other jews...what is going on?

That is quite interesting. Especially what he quotes from Cassuto. Don't get too excited about a Rabbi writing this, as Jews, including Rabbis, tend to take many positions on nearly every issue.

I am wondering if this search for "when the Biblical day starts" is based on a false assumption, namely that there is or was such a thing as a standard "Biblical Day" in the modern 24 hour sense of the word. Holidays could start at sunset, sacrifices could be eaten until morning, and there is no contradiction, except in our modern minds.

 

[rstrats]

re: "Mark Chapter 4. Here we find (Yahusha) teaching throughout the course of a day, and in verse 35 we read: "And the SAME DAY, when the EVEN WAS COME,he saith unto them, Let us pass over unto the other side."

I wonder when "EVEN" began?

 

[genuineoriginal]

2. Jesus lived 600 years after the return from Babylon. When did the day start in his time? Think about it.

John 11:9 9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.​

It appears that Jesus thought the day began at dawn and ended at sunset.

 

[clefty]

I wonder when "EVEN" began?

Well...certainly after the Light was created...evening needs light...diminishing light...the darkness before light was created had no evening...no morning either...it was just darkness and then suddenly Light...this Light was called good...named DAY then seperated from darkness which itself was now named NIGHT...

All this is happning on day one...finally as this new ligh called Day continues we get to evening as then this light created diminished and was now named evening...then the night became a thing called morning because light came back...and now finally the day was counted since it was now complete...evening morning--day One

Oh...

you meant in mark 4?