toldailytopic: The rapture. When will it happen and what will it be like?

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tetelestai

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This is in reference to the rapture...if a person is not right with God at the time of the rapture...that person will be "left behind" when Jesus Christ comes for His Bride/Church (1 Thess. 4:13-18)

So far the rapture proponents are offering different opinions of who gets raptured.

Some say it is Christians who will be transported, others are saying it is the unbelievers who are transported, and we have someone suggesting it is a trick (if you go you face gnashing of teeth, but if you stay to help you are rewarded)

Some rapture proponnents are claiming 1 Thess 4:13-18 describes the rapture, while other rapture propponents are saying 1 Thess 4:13-18 describes the end of the tribulation period.

This is what happens when people try to make myths fit scripture.

It’s really simple folks; Jesus appears in the sky, everyone sees Him, the dead are resurrected first, then the believers who are alive are taken up in the air; after that, those that are left face judgment day with the resurrected unbelievers.

There is no secret rapture. John Nelson Darby made it up.
 

tetelestai

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Perpetual Laws for Israel

Nope

(Hebrews 8:6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

God tells us that He altered the original covenant and made “a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”
 

tetelestai

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You have a further conundrum: Jesus fulfilled only five of the seven feasts of Israel. Two (Feasts of Atonement and Trumpets) remain unfulfilled.

Again Tom, read Hebrews.

Chapter 8, 9, and 10 tell how Christ was the ultimate atonement.

To suggest that the Day of Atonement was not fulfilled takes away from what happened on the cross.

Christ said “It is Finished” Tom. You are saying that it is not finished.
 

TeeJay

New member
So far the rapture proponents are offering different opinions of who gets raptured.

Some say it is Christians who will be transported, others are saying it is the unbelievers who are transported, and we have someone suggesting it is a trick (if you go you face gnashing of teeth, but if you stay to help you are rewarded)

Some rapture proponnents are claiming 1 Thess 4:13-18 describes the rapture, while other rapture propponents are saying 1 Thess 4:13-18 describes the end of the tribulation period.

This is what happens when people try to make myths fit scripture.

It’s really simple folks; Jesus appears in the sky, everyone sees Him, the dead are resurrected first, then the believers who are alive are taken up in the air; after that, those that are left face judgment day with the resurrected unbelievers.

There is no secret rapture. John Nelson Darby made it up.

Tet,

You could not be more wrong if you were a Mormon. Jesus spoke of His second coming. The first time He came, He came "not to judge." When Jesus ascended, Israel had one more year to accept their risen Christ (the parable of the fig tree (Israel)). The Twelve preached to "none but the Jews only" in an effort to get Israel to accept their risen Christ. Peter's pleadings were that if you accept Jesus, "God will send Jesus back" and they would get their kingdom. But Israel rejected Jesus Christ when He walked among them and then they rejected their risen Christ. God cut off Israel (as a nation). Israel's kingdom is on hold. But Jesus will come back, but this time He comes in judgment--of individuals and nations. "Two will be in the field and one will be taken." "Where will they be taken, Lord" one of the Twelve asked. Jesus said that they would be taken where the vultures are. Here in Texas, being taken where the vultures are is not good. These birds can open a cow's stomach like a surgeon's scalpel.

If Israel had accepted their risen Christ, there would be no Body of Christ. And you would have to approach God through the nation of Israel which would mean getting circumcised and keeping Israel perpetual covenants and statutes. For Peter, circumcision was not optional. God almost killed Moses for not circmcising his son by his Midionite wife Zipporah. The first man to violate the Sabbath law was put to death. Yet, for some unknown reason, you, Tet, do not have to circumcise or keep Sabbath law but do not see that you have a different dispensation from God? You won't admit that you are under a different dispensation. You can't explain why you are under a different dispensation. And you reject dispensation out of hand. Why?

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
 

TeeJay

New member
Nope

(Hebrews 8:6) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

God tells us that He altered the original covenant and made “a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”

Tet, why did you not address the fact that circumcision, Sabbath law and Israel's feast are PERPETUAL covenants?

THE SEVEN FEASTS OF Israel

In a debate, one is not allowed to use the very evidence that he is attempting to prove is true. For example, if a Mormon used the Book of Mormon to prove the Book of Mormon, this would be circular reasoning. Evolutionists date bones by the earth they are found in and date the earth by the bones. Go figure! But, and it is a big but, the Bible proves itself. Jesus said, “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true” (John 5:31). In John 5:39 Jesus scolded the hard-hearted Jews, “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.” And before Jesus ascended, He enlightened His apostles: “And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself” (Luke 24:27).

God symbolized His great plans via the seven feasts of Israel. Jesus replaced the feast symbolism with His own substance, and with His works. In this way 2,000 years ago God was in the process of fulfilling the seven feasts of Israel one by one. Before completing the process, however, God postponed Israel’s program.

Passover

For a Jew to celebrate the Feast of Passover, he had to purchase a lamb. Jesus, the true Lamb of God and the True Passover Lamb, was purchased by the High Priest of Israel from Judas for thirty pieces of silver. (For references to this feast, see Lev. 23:4-5; Ex. 12:3-14; 21-27; 43-48; Num. 9:1-14; 28:16; Deut. 16:1-7; [Ps. 34:20; 22:17].) Christ died on the day Israel killed their Passover Lamb, thus fulfilling Passover (Mat. 26:2; Luke 22:15; 1 Cor. 5:7; John 6:53; [19:33]).

Unleavened Bread

Unleavened bread has no yeast or leaven and does not decay as yeast bread. During this feast, Christ’s body (True Bread from Heaven) lay in the grave; yet His body (symbolized by unleavened bread, Mat. 26:26, did not see corruption--thus fulfilling the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Acts 2:31). (For references to this feast, see Lev. 23:6-8; Ex. 12:15-20, 13:6-10, 23:15, 34:18; Num. 28:17-25; Deut. 16:3-4, 8, 16.)

Firstfruits

Christ rose from the grave on Firstfruits on “the day after the Sabbath” following Passover, thus fulfilling the Feast of Firstfruits (1 Cor. 15:20, 23). (For references to this feast, see Lev. 23:10-14; Ex. 23:16, 19; 34:22, 26; Num. 28:26.)

Pentecost (“Feast of Weeks”)

Daniel’s Prophecy of Weeks harkens back to the “Feast of Weeks” (Ex. 34:22) both of which were still on track at Pentecost, the fulfillment of the Feast of Weeks (also called Pentecost). (Pentecost came seven weeks, i.e., “seven Sabbaths” (Lev. 23:15) plus one day or “fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath” (Lev. 23:16).) The Feast of Weeks was seven weeks (Lev. 23:15) and Daniel’s Prophecy of Weeks was 70 weeks (Dan. 9:24). As Luke wrote “when the Day of Pentecost had fully come” (Acts 2:1) though it was “only the third hour of the day” (Acts 2:15) so also Daniel’s Prophecy of Weeks had fully come since it was then the 70th week, albeit, the beginning of the week. Christ poured out His Holy Spirit on Pentecost, thus fulfilling the Feast of Weeks (Acts 2:1, 4; 1:5; Mat. 3:11). For references to this feast, see Lev. 23:15-21; Ex. 34:22; Num. 28:26-31; Deut. 16:9-12, 16; 2 Chr. 8:13.)

Trumpets

This feast remains unfulfilled until Christ’s Second Coming (Mat. 24:31, 29-30). When Christ returns (Mat. 24:29) “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet” (Mat. 24:31) and will establish His Kingdom (Mat. 25:31-34) as proclaimed by the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15). For references to this feast, see Lev. 23:23-25; Num. 29:1-6.)

Day of Atonement

This feast remains unfulfilled until the eternal Jubilee (Lev. 25:8-13). (For references, see Lev. 23:26-32; 16:1-34; Num. 29:7-11.)

Tabernacles

Christ “tabernacled” among us on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles (John 1:14). For a fascinating presentation of the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles on the very day of the feast see E. W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Bible Publishers, 1974), Appendix 179. Was Christ born on the first day of Tabernacles and circumcised on the eight day of the feast? (For references, see Ex. 34:22; Lev. 23:33-43; Num. 29:12-40; Deut. 16:13-16; 23:16; 31:10-11; 2 Chro. 8:13: Ezra 3:4; Zech. 14:16-19.)

“It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of Kings is to search out a matter” (Prov.25:2).

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
 

Lighthouse

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Ok, then tell me which scripture you believe says there will be a rapture.

For the record, many rapture proponets say the 1 Thess 4 passage refers to the rapture.

See the following:
Christ will not appear for the rapture. Not to those who are not partaking in the departure anyway.

I was mistaken in my reading of the passage, though. I thought it was saying He was going to appear to the entire world. Now that I read it again it does not say that.

There is only one return of Christ that is the Second Coming, and that is after the rapture.

Well, if one is raptured they skip dying. Right?

Christians fear death most of any of the religion cults.
Why would we fear dying? To die is gain. I have no reason to fear death. I may have reason to fear a painful death, but that's fear of pain. And I may have reason to fear leaving people behind, but everyone has reason to fear that.

But fear of death? Why? If I believed death was the end and I would cease to exist I would have reason to fear. That's a scary thought.

Hogwash. Jesus comes back for a spotless bride.
Scripture?
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Hogwash. Jesus comes back for a spotless bride. The remainder are those who won't repent of their sin... holding to the notion that all religions are OK with God is one of them. :chuckle:

The spotless bride has blood on her hands and death in her belly.

The only hogwash is in claiming that the Prince of Peace, the God of Mercy and Grace, advocates death and destruction.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
The spotless bride has blood on her hands and death in her belly. The only hogwash is in claiming that the Prince of Peace, the God of Mercy and Grace, advocates death and destruction.
Hogwash. Your 'hippie' God isn't described in The Bible. He's powerless, and doesn't even exist. God is just. Punishment for sin is certain. He will destroy every enemy with The Sword which proceeds out of His Mouth at His coming.
 

Ecumenicist

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Hogwash. Your 'hippie' God isn't described in The Bible. He's powerless, and doesn't even exist. God is just. Punishment for sin is certain. He will destroy every enemy with The Sword which proceeds out of His Mouth at His coming.

There is no justice or power in death. God is the bringer of life. Real power heals and cleanses. Destruction is the easy way out, that's why humans pursue it. The real power is in Creation.

Read your scripture, the enemy that will be destroyed is death.
 

serpentdove

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What will it be like?

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up [2 Pet. 3:10].

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.” There is some argument as to whether this takes place at the coming of Christ to establish His kingdom or at the end of the millennial kingdom. I am convinced that the Day of the Lord is an extended period of time which opens with the Tribulation, followed by the thousand-year reign of Christ, the brief rebellion led by Satan, and the judgment of the Great White Throne. Then, as we find in the Book of Revelation, the new heavens and the new earth come into view.
“As a thief in the night,” the same expression which Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 5:2, indicates that it will begin unexpectedly.
“In the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise.” The Greek word used here for “noise” is rhoizēdon. It is the word used for the swish of an arrow, the rush of wings, the splash of water, the hiss of a serpent. Have you ever listened to an atom bomb go off? Do you remember a number of years ago when they were experimenting with the bombs and we could see and hear them on television? This is the very word and the only word I know that could describe such a noise.
“And the elements shall melt with fervent heat.” You see, matter is not eternal as was once believed; you can get rid of matter—that is, it can be converted into energy. Peter speaks here of “the elements,” the little building blocks of the universe, the stoicheia as it is in the Greek. Stoicheion is a better word than our word atom which comes from a Greek word meaning something you cannot cut, because we have found that an atom can be cut and it can be taken apart.
“Melt” employs one of the simplest Greek words, the verb luō, which simply means “to untie or to unloose.” By untying the atom, man has been able to produce a little bomb that can do tremendous wonders. Today men are trying to release that energy because you and I live in a world that is running out of resources. When God stocked this earth, He put plenty of oil in it, and He put plenty of groceries here. It was like a great supermarket. Men came and prostituted this earth. They have polluted the earth and are beginning to use up all that God had put in the pantry and all that He had put in the filling station. But there is a tremendous potential of energy in the little atom, and I tell you, when God destroys this earth someday, it is going to be a tremendous thing. I think that it will be just like a great atomic explosion, and the earth will go into nothing. I have always felt that the Lord will probably turn the little atoms wrong side out and use the other side of them for a while. When He does that, man will never be able to untie them again.
“The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” This will certainly include the tremendous amount of water that is on the earth—it will be burned up. We know today that water is made up of two elements, hydrogen and oxygen, and both of them are gases that are inflammable and can be very explosive. Firemen tell us that there are certain kinds of fire which, when water is put on them, are only helped along by it. Firefighters have to use certain kinds of chemicals to put out such fires. “The works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Peter is saying that God will judge in the future just as He has in the past. At the beginning of this chapter, Peter says that the scoffers will say, “All things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” (v. 4). The scoffer’s great fallacy is in not knowing the past, yet it is the evolutionist who makes so much of the fact that there was a great catastrophe in the past. The great mountains out here in the West, the High Sierras, were thrown up at that time by some great convulsion of nature. That happened sometime in the past, and it was a judgment of God, if you please.
The Day of the Lord will include judgment also. The “day of the Lord” is a familiar term in Scripture. The prophets used it, the Lord Jesus used it, and many of the New Testament writers used it. It is a technical term. The Day of the Lord begins in darkness, as the Old Testament prophets said—it begins with tribulation. It ends with this great atomic explosion, this great judgment of the earth by its being dissolved by fire. Between these two great events is the period of the seven years of tribulation, the coming of Christ to the earth to establish His kingdom, the millennial kingdom, the brief release of Satan and the rebellion of those who rally to him, Satan’s final confinement, and the Great White Throne judgment of the lost. Then after the judgment of the earth, which Peter is describing, the new heaven and the new earth come into view."
McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 5:749-750

:shocked: We’re gonna need a bigger boat. :burnlib:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord [1 Thess. 4:17].

"Again, “caught up” is the Greek harpazō, meaning “to grasp hastily, snatch up, to lift, transport, or rapture.” It is going to be a very orderly procedure. The dead will rise first. Here comes Stephen out of the grave. It may be that he will lead the procession since he was the first martyr. Then there will be the apostles and all those millions who have laid down their lives for Jesus. They will just keep coming from right down through the centuries. Finally, if we are alive at that time, we will bring up the rear of the parade. We will be way down at the tail end of it. Most of the church has already gone in through the doorway of death."
McGee, J. Vernon: Thru the Bible Commentary. electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1981, S. 5:399
 
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SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Tet, why did you not address the fact that circumcision, Sabbath law and Israel's feast are PERPETUAL covenants?

Tom,

Tet believes he is a Gentile Israelite of the tribe of Ephraim. He tinkers with preterism, covenant theology, and replacement theology, picking what he likes from each...and, sometimes "proves" his doctrine from the apocrypha and wikipedia.

That should tell you about all you need to know. I would suggest moving on from Tet.
 

LindaR

New member
Tom,

Tet believes he is a Gentile Israelite of the tribe of Ephraim. He tinkers with preterism, covenant theology, and replacement theology, picking what he likes from each...and, sometimes "proves" his doctrine from the apocrypha and wikipedia.

That should tell you about all you need to know. I would suggest moving on from Tet.
Thanks SaulToPaul! That tells me enough.

How does one "prove" doctrine from the apocrypha and wikipedia without going over the "deep end"?
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
There is no justice or power in death. God is the bringer of life. Real power heals and cleanses. Destruction is the easy way out, that's why humans pursue it. The real power is in Creation. Read your scripture, the enemy that will be destroyed is death.
I've read Scripture, and the spirit of death as well as the spirit of hell will be tormented forever, along with all those whose names are not written in The Lamb's Book of Life, forever and ever; angelic and human alike. If you don't understand this most basic of sound Christian doctrines, you're not reading very thoroughly or honestly. God does not kill, but He is just, and will recompense evil men for their sins.
 

TeeJay

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Tom,

Tet believes he is a Gentile Israelite of the tribe of Ephraim. He tinkers with preterism, covenant theology, and replacement theology, picking what he likes from each...and, sometimes "proves" his doctrine from the apocrypha and wikipedia.

That should tell you about all you need to know. I would suggest moving on from Tet.

STP, now it's clear--crystal even! There is a few things he can't explain:

Sabbath law, circumcision, keeping the feasts, etc. are PERPETUAL statutes as long as there is an Israel. Why is he not keeping them? And if he breaks them, there is a death penalty commanded by God. Notice that when he addressed my post, he ignored my argument for perpetual laws for Israel. Why?

Jesus promised that the His Twelve apostles would rule over the Twelve Tribes of Isarel. So God must know where every son of Abraham is and He will gather them to His kingdom. If He knows how many hairs are on their heads, surely He knows where they are.

A Christian cannot not be a Dispensationalist and be saved by grace.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
If Christians studied what Christ commanded us to do as much as they do end-times prophecy, we might have gotten our job done by now.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
I've read Scripture, and the spirit of death as well as the spirit of hell will be tormented forever, along with all those whose names are not written in The Lamb's Book of Life, forever and ever; angelic and human alike. If you don't understand this most basic of sound Christian doctrines, you're not reading very thoroughly or honestly. God does not kill, but He is just, and will recompense evil men for their sins.

'The spirit of hell'? What are you talking about?
 

john w

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Hall of Fame
To all the believers who are in agreement that there will one day be a rapture, my advice is to take some time and study when the rapture doctrine first appeared, by whom said it, and the circumstances that existed.

The “rapture” was unheard of less than 200 years ago.

_
And a "round earth" was unheard of (fill in the # of years), and the Holy Bible was considered the KJB 100 years ago.


Next "argument."
 
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Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Silent Hunter said:
Christians fear death most of any of the religion cults.
Why would we fear dying? To die is gain. I have no reason to fear death. I may have reason to fear a painful death, but that's fear of pain. And I may have reason to fear leaving people behind, but everyone has reason to fear that.

But fear of death? Why? If I believed death was the end and I would cease to exist I would have reason to fear. That's a scary thought.
If you don't fear death strap on a suicide vest like the rest of the religious zelots and blow yourself up.
 

godrulz

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If you don't fear death strap on a suicide vest like the rest of the religious zelots and blow yourself up.

We do not fear death, but we are not presumptious fools who play god and believe lies.

The sanctity of life and sovereignty of God over it trumps playing foolish games on the demand of dopey atheists.:dunce:
 
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