toldailytopic: The rapture. When will it happen and what will it be like?

[Ecumenicist]

I don’t believe Christians should try to change the world. Its Satan’s planet, Satan is the prince of the planet...

John 16:33

"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

 

[Ecumenicist]

The Rapture is a test for the True followers of Christ. True followers will beg Christ to leave them behind to help those who suffer in the tribulation. The self righteous pharisaic Christians will be taken up alright, but it ain't gonna be like they think. They're the one's who will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth. That's when Christ declares to those who consider themselves true believers "I never knew you!"

Everyone without mercy and love; Christians who think God has come to kill nonChristians, Muslims who believe Allah has come to kill nonMuslims, people of every faith who use the Lord's Name to justify fear, hatred, and death, will be called to account. For they all bear false witness to God's Infinite Mercy and Grace.

Woe to the pharisees and hypocrites!

 

[Silent Hunter]

Silent: Did you ever have religious background in the past? Do you like Dawkins?

Yes and Yes.

I'm a big fan of Harold Camping right now. I listen to one of his programs from time-to-time. He's definitely on the lunatic fringe.

 

[Prisca]

The Rapture is a test for the True followers of Christ. True followers will beg Christ to leave them behind to help those who suffer in the tribulation. The self righteous pharisaic Christians will be taken up alright, but it ain't gonna be like they think. They're the one's who will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth. That's when Christ declares to those who consider themselves true believers "I never knew you!"

Everyone without mercy and love; Christians who think God has come to kill nonChristians, Muslims who believe Allah has come to kill nonMuslims, people of every faith who use the Lord's Name to justify fear, hatred, and death, will be called to account. For they all bear false witness to God's Infinite Mercy and Grace.

Woe to the pharisees and hypocrites!

Interesting. I've never heard this take on the Rapture before. :think:

 

[TeeJay]

Verse 31 is describing the same day as verse 45.

Verse 36 starts out:

(Matt 24:36) No one knows about that day or hour...

I can’t even believe that you are going to attempt to say chapter 24 is about two different things.

There is no rapture and tribulation. There is a final coming.

To say that part of chapter 24 is about the rapture, and part of chapter 24 is after the tribulation is a dispensational fairytale.



Read Hebrews Tom. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant.

This is the new covenant.

Believing that God gave Moses an old covenant, and then believing that Jesus came and fulfilled the old covenant by dying on the cross and implementing a new covenant, does not make one a dispensationalist.

What makes one a dispensationalist, is believing that Jesus did not fulfill the old covenant on the cross, denying the finished work of Jesus on the cross, believing that animal sacrifices and feasts will be observed again in the future, and believing that there will be a secret rapture.

Tet, will you please answer the questions I posed to you.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[Prisca]

If you wish to see arrogance, look in a mirror.

Death is a consequence of 1) age, 2) disease, 3) violence, anything else is myth.

The rest of your post is superstitious nonsense.

You've got it backwards. 1) age, 2) disease, 3) violence are the result of death. Had we not "died," then these things would never have come to us.

 

[Aimiel]

The Rapture is a test for the True followers of Christ. True followers will beg Christ to leave them behind to help those who suffer in the tribulation. The self righteous pharisaic Christians will be taken up alright, but it ain't gonna be like they think. They're the one's who will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth. That's when Christ declares to those who consider themselves true believers "I never knew you!"

Everyone without mercy and love; Christians who think God has come to kill nonChristians, Muslims who believe Allah has come to kill nonMuslims, people of every faith who use the Lord's Name to justify fear, hatred, and death, will be called to account. For they all bear false witness to God's Infinite Mercy and Grace.

Hogwash. Jesus comes back for a spotless bride. The remainder are those who won't repent of their sin... holding to the notion that all religions are OK with God is one of them. :chuckle:

 

[Silent Hunter]

You've got it backwards. 1) age, 2) disease, 3) violence are the result of death. Had we not "died," then these things would never have come to us.

LOL, so called "spiritual" death is a myth perpetuated by Christians. Humans die for the same reasons other animals die... age, disease, and violence. To attempt to prove otherwise you must rely on circular logic, special pleading, and several other falacies. I perfer to live in reality, not the wishful world of religion.

 

[Poly]

Knight,

The Rapture will occur when the "fulness of the Gentiles" has come. So, instead of praying for Jesus' soon return, we should pray that many Gentiles will come to Christ.

To believe in the Rapture, one must be a Dispensationalist. And, all Christians alive today are Dispensationalists. One cannot not be a Dispensatonalist. I know I will be challenged on this, but I stand ready to prove my point.

Now for an explanation of the Rapture:

THE RAPTURE

The Rapture Appears Only in Paul’s Writings.

Rapture teaching does not appear in the Old Testament. Further, the Rapture does not appear anywhere in the New Testament other than in Paul’s writings. Unbelievers trying to instill doubt concerning the authority of the Bible sometimes point out that Paul’s teachings, including Rapture, run contrary to much of the Biblical record. One expects such from the heathen. Sadly, however, some Christians attempting to discredit Rapture teaching actually try to demean the subject by pointing out that only Paul mentions it. On the 700 Club, Pat Robertson said he did not believe in any sort of Rapture and there was no Biblical support for the notion of a Rapture. Go figure!

Some, making a contrary error (though less egregious), suppose that Jesus taught about the Rapture. However since the departure of the Body of Christ is part of God’s “unprophesied” mystery for the Body, Christ would not have mentioned it. What then was Jesus referring to in the following passage?

“Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left.” Mat. 24:40-41

Superficially it may seem that Christ is speaking of the Rapture, a great departure, or something similar, since it is supposed that those “taken” are blessed and those left are cursed. However, the context shows the opposite is the case. Those left are left due to mercy and those taken are taken in judgment.

For in the time of Noah:

“…the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Mat. 24:39

Those in unbelief are taken away in judgment in this context. Further, concerning the Kingdom Christ earlier taught:

“The Son of Man will send out His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness and will cast them into the furnace of fire.” Mat. 13:41-42

The angels will take away evil men in judgment (see also Mat. 13:49-50), leaving righteous men remaining (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9), rooted in “good ground” (Mat. 13:23). So the angels do not rapture, but take away in judgment the man “in the field” and the woman “at the mill.” Luke gives additional proof of this by recording the disciples’ question, “Where, Lord?” Like students today, they wondered where those people would be “taken.” Jesus replied, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles [vultures] will be gathered together” (Luke 17:37). The Lord thus quoted Job about “the eagle” (Job 39:27) and “where the slain are, there it is” (Job 39:30). (This also shows that “the coming of the Son of Man” as “lightning comes from the east” (Mat. 24:27) refers to a coming in judgment (and not for rapture) because Matthew immediately adds Christ’s same quote about “the carcass” and “the eagles” (Mat. 24:28). So Jesus spoke of judgment and not of Rapture. After all,, the Rapture was also a mystery (1 Cor. 15:51) which God revealed only through the Apostle Paul for the Body of Christ.

The Rapture is Another Mystery

Yes, not only was the Body of Christ a mystery, but God’s plans for the Body were also a mystery, including the Rapture, which had never before been revealed:

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:51-52

God kept a secret of the Body and of the Rapture. Of those saved by the Gospel of the Uncircumcision (grace) “we shall not all sleep.” This means that some members of the Body of Christ will not die. “Sleep” is a metaphor for death (John 11:11-14). Paul commonly used this figure of speech (Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 11:30; 1 Thes. 4:14; 5:10). The “last trumpet” here is not the last trump for Israel, which will still have seven more trumpet blasts to endure in the Great Tribulation (Rev. 8:6). This is the last trumpet for the Body of Christ.

Recall that the Great Tribulation is “the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble (Jer. 30:7), that is, Israel’s Tribulation. Thus the seven trumpet blasts of Revelation are part of the purification process for the nation of Israel (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9; Luke 21:20-24; Mat. 24:9) to prepare them to inherit their Kingdom (Mat. 25:34; Dan. 9:24).

The great mystery is that God broke down the wall of partition (symbolized by the partition in the Temple between the Court of the Gentiles and the inner courts) between Jew and Gentile, which was the law (Eph. 2:14-15), to create the Body of Christ. Hence, God did not intend to submit this new Body to His old plans for Israel. Those plans do not fit God’s new program—the Body under the Gospel of Uncircumcision (grace).

God saved the Gentiles in part “to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy” (Rom. 11:11). Therefore God gave the Body a heavenly calling (Eph. 1:3; 2:6; Phil 3:20) rather than a calling to an earthly kingdom (Mat. 6:10). The Last Days prophecy for the Body is not filled with trouble and terror as Israel’s is, but as Paul says, these things will comfort (1 Thes. 4:18) the Body. After God finishes His work with the Body He will return to His plans for Israel (Rom. 11:25). At that point the Body will have completed its ministry upon earth. Therefore God will Rapture His Church (the Body) just prior to rejoining the program for Israel where He left off, toward the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week.


We, the Body of Christ, Are Not Israel

Jesus’ original plan, which was prophesied throughout the whole Old Testament, was to give Israel a Kingdom with Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords. Israel rejected their risen Christ. God’s plan for Israel’s kingdom was Plan A.

But, just as a good general will have a Plan B (and even a Plan C) should Plan A fail, God had a Plan B should Israel reject Jesus’ offer. “Because of unbelief” God cut off Israel. When He did this, He took Paul sent him directly to the Gentiles, bypassing Israel. He also gave Paul new marching orders—the Gospel of Uncircumcision or Gospel of Grace.

Had Israel not rejected Jesus, they would have gone through their Tribulation or the Time of Jacob’s trouble 2,000 years ago. Jesus would have then returned, established their kingdom, and judged nations, etc. Make sense?

The Departure “Comes First”

Paul wrote about the Rapture again in his second epistle to the Thessalonians and placed it prior to the Tribulation. The Greek noun, pronounced ap-os-tas-ee’-ah appears in that context. Understanding apostaseeah involves a related word, its cognate verb, pronounced aph-is’-tay-mee. In the New Testament, these two Greek words can translate into apostasy, as in forsake, fall away and departure. These related words both have two related meanings: departure, as in from a place, as in the angel departed; and apostasy, as in from a creed, as in they departed from Moses. Thus Paul could use apostaseeah, meaning departure (or Rapture) as a sign that will precede the Day of Christ [i.e., the Day of the Lord].

Therefore, we must consider the intended meaning by the context. For what sign will precede the Day of the Lord, departure from the faith (as in apostasy), or departure from earth (as in Rapture). Let’s look at the context:

Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him we ask you, not to be soon shaken… as though the Day of Christ had come. 2 Thes. 2:1-2

The context is “our gathering together to Him” at “the coming of our Lord.” The Rapture, that is, the supernatural departure of the Church (Body of Christ) from the earth is the context.

Paul went further to correct a rumor that they were living in the Day of the Lord. Paul wrote:

… that Day will not come unless the falling away [departure] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition. 2 Thes. 2:3

Pray for Fullness, Not Apostasy

One final point is that Israel’s Day of the Lord, called the time of Jacob’s trouble, begins not after the falling away but after the fullness. For:

…hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [into the Body]. And so all Israel will be saved…. Rom. 11:25-26

Hence the Lord does not come for the Body after the forsaking but after the fullness. Thus to hasten the Lord’s coming, believers should pray for a full harvest, not a falling away.

When the truth is “rightly divided,” all pieces of the Scriptural puzzle fit without being forced or spiritualized. And best of all, theories of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, and partial Rapture, et.al. are easily deemed absurd.

As Paul admonished, “We should all study to show ourselves approved.”

Again, I submit that a Christian cannot no be a Dispensationalist. And if so, one cannot dismiss the Rapture as non-Scriptural. Paul is very clear that we are "saved from the wrath that is to come" which is the Tribulation of the time of Jacob's trouble.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

Thanks Tom, that was great and worth repeating.

Yes it is! :up:

 

[Psalmist]

LOL, so called "spiritual" death is a myth perpetuated by Christians. Humans die for the same reasons other animals die... age, disease, and violence. To attempt to prove otherwise you must rely on circular logic, special pleading, and several other falacies. I perfer to live in reality, not the wishful world of religion.

Death is the end of dying.

​

 

[Silent Hunter]

Death is the end of dying.

​

In my world view there is no greater truth. But once dead that's it buster. Belief in a myth won't bring you back... ever.

 

[godrulz]

LOL, so called "spiritual" death is a myth perpetuated by Christians. Humans die for the same reasons other animals die... age, disease, and violence. To attempt to prove otherwise you must rely on circular logic, special pleading, and several other falacies. I perfer to live in reality, not the wishful world of religion.

Physical death is based on physical depravity from the Fall. Before this historical event, creation was 'very good' and man had access to the tree of life. Things changed after the Fall, for the worse. Spiritual/eternal death is based on moral depravity, truths outside raw reason or scientific method. We know about sin, God, salvation, etc. because of divine revelation.

Call it wishful thinking, but spiritual reality/truth is just as valid/real as the physical realm.

You reject it outright, but that does not mean it is not objectively true.

 

[godrulz]

In my world view there is no greater truth. But once dead that's it buster. Belief in a myth won't bring you back... ever.

You are confusing man with dogs. We are more than hairless apes. We have spirits that will live forever in heaven/hell. The body is a temporary shell, but it will be resurrected someday, even as Christ's was.

The historical resurrection of the God-Man, the Lord Jesus Christ validates these things. You are arrogant and ignorant, an object of pity and evangelism (but your heart and head seem hard, so you are getting justice instead of mercy).

 

[Granite]

Like Paul, we are torn (Phil.). We want to be with the one we love and see Him face to face (I Jn. 3:2). This is no different than distanced human relationships. I personally want to live out my full life here since there is much to do and experience here. I have eternity to experience eternity, so what is the rush? I want to see loved ones, but I can wait.

What Christian teen wants to get raptured before they get married, have sex, have kids, etc. I wanted to see the completion of Star Wars, the next U2 concert, the next Star Trek movie, finish my black belt, graduate from school, etc.

You overestimate the few who have an escapist feeling due to their own immaturity and lack of coping ability; you underestimate the legitimacy of longing to see Jesus and the saints and His kingdom triumph; you wrongly evaluate the motives of those who have a balanced perspective on these things.

If we turn the mirror on you, your life is a vapor, a fading flower. You have no invisible means of support, no eternal hope, the fear of you being wrong and going to hell (you can suppress truth, but it will keep popping up), etc. No matter how fulfilling and long this life is for you, it falls short of what it could have been. You may be content from a selfish perspective, but God's view is what matters in the end.

I have abundant and eternal life with no regret. You have this life and will have an eternity of regret if you do not return to the faith.

GR, I think I already told you I have zero use or interest in a urinating contest (much less your ham-fisted evangelism), so posts like this are a waste of both our time.

 

[Silent Hunter]

LOL, so called "spiritual" death is a myth perpetuated by Christians. Humans die for the same reasons other animals die... age, disease, and violence. To attempt to prove otherwise you must rely on circular logic, special pleading, and several other fallacies. I prefer to live in reality, not the wishful world of religion.

Physical death is based on physical depravity from the Fall. Before this historical event, creation was 'very good' and man had access to the tree of life. Things changed after the Fall, for the worse. Spiritual/eternal death is based on moral depravity, truths outside raw reason or scientific method. We know about sin, God, salvation, etc. because of divine revelation.

Sorry, all available evidence clearly shows physical death is caused by old age, disease, or violence. Any other explanation is an adherence to myth and wishful thinking.

Call it wishful thinking, but spiritual reality/truth is just as valid/real as the physical realm.

Sorry, it’s belief in the supernatural. Since the supernatural is by definition something not associated with reality I reject it.

You reject it outright, but that does not mean it is not objectively true.

I certainly do. If the spiritual were real it would be available to objective analysis. So far, nothing in my experience has led to spirituality being objectively verified.

In my world view there is no greater truth. But once dead that's it buster. Belief in a myth won't bring you back... ever.

You are confusing man with dogs. We are more than hairless apes. We have spirits that will live forever in heaven/hell. The body is a temporary shell, but it will be resurrected someday, even as Christ's was.

I’m not confused. We have more in common with animals than we do imaginary beings like ghosts and gods. You cannot prove man has an eternal spirit any more than you can prove your resurrection myth.

The historical resurrection of the God-Man, the Lord Jesus Christ validates these things. You are arrogant and ignorant, an object of pity and evangelism (but your heart and head seem hard, so you are getting justice instead of mercy).

If all I have to look forward to from you is evangelistic bs you will find yourself on my ignore list quite quickly.

 

[tetelestai]

Tet, will you please answer the questions I posed to you.

I did Tom.

I don't live in the old covenant, I live in the new covenant.

Therefore, I don't have to adhere to the things in your questions because Christ fulfilled the old covenant.

 

[LindaR]

Get right or get left!

 

[godrulz]

Get right or get left!

Is that like turn or burn?

 

[LindaR]

Is that like turn or burn?

This is in reference to the rapture...if a person is not right with God at the time of the rapture...that person will be "left behind" when Jesus Christ comes for His Bride/Church (1 Thess. 4:13-18)

 

[TeeJay]

I did Tom.

I don't live in the old covenant, I live in the new covenant.

Therefore, I don't have to adhere to the things in your questions because Christ fulfilled the old covenant.

Tet,

Perpetual Laws for Israel

Abraham and all his descendants (Israel or Jews) had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is ”an EVERLASTING covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “PERPETUAL statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “EVERLASTING COVENANT” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision to Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

He also told Israel to observe the Day of Atonement forever: “It [the Day of Atonement] is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you…. It is a statute FOREVER” (Lev. 16:31).

The Lord gave many symbolic commands including circumcision, the feasts, and the Sabbath to Israel as “EVERLASTING COVENANTS.” But none of these apply to us, today, in the Body of Christ. Note the Jewish purpose of the Sabbath:

”’Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath… throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel FOREVER…’” Ex. 31:16-17.

But Paul writes, “Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow [sign] of things to come, but the substances is of Christ” (Col. 2:16-17). And many mistakenly think that Israel was no longer under the law after the Cross. But Jesus warned about the Tribulation which is after the Cross: “And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath” (Mat. 24:20).

Also, Tet, before the Flood, humans could not eat meat. Eating meat after the Flood was a new (dare I say the word?) "dispensation."

You have a further conundrum: Jesus fulfilled only five of the seven feasts of Israel. Two (Feasts of Atonement and Trumpets) remain unfulfilled. Also, some Israel's feasts are PERPETUAL for Israel.

So, if you are not keeping the Sabbath laws, being circumcised, not worrying about eating meat sacrificed to idols (Rev. 2:14), observing Israel's feasts, then you are a Dispensationalist. Oh! Remember that a violation of these statutes is a death penalty.

For Israel these statutes are perpetual, forever, everlasting, as long as there is an Israel. And God promises that Israel will never ceast to be.

Israel does not yet have their kingdom. Right?

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX