Tom, he is off the deep end.
toldailytopic: The rapture. When will it happen and what will it be like?
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Tom, he is off the deep end.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
He would rather be wrong than to agree with his arch-nemesis john w on something.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I personally don't have any doubts that Tet is in the Body of Christ. I wonder if he will be furious when is indeed raptured, and finds out that Daniel's 70th week is indeed future, and that there will indeed be a literal 1,000 year reign of the Lord Jesus Christ.
He would rather be wrong than to agree with his arch-nemesis john w on something.
Another lie.
You keep trying to make this an issue because you don’t like it that someone who fully understands dispensationalism (me) no longer sees it as Biblical truth.
What is your excuse for Lon and Nang, and the many other former dispensationalists?
Both Lon and Nang were dispensationalists for many years, both understand the teachings of dispensationalism, and now both see dispensationalism as false.
The professor of theology that is teaching the Revelation course that I am currently teaching was a dispensationalist for over 30 years, and he now no longer is.
Also, many at Dallas Theological Seminary (“the” dispensationalim seminary) are starting to see the errors of dispensationalism. Many there are now subscribing to progressive dispensationalsim because the errors of traditional dispensationalism (including MAD & A28) are being exposed.
I can assure you that my walk with God has absolutely nothing to do with John W. He may be your hero, idol, and mentor, but he as zero influence on me.
You just don't like the fact that someone who understands dispensationalism doesn't see it as Biblical truth.
Kid’s stuff.
Will you be furious when Christ comes and you find out the rapture was just a fairytale?
Will you be furious when Christ comes and you find out that the great tribulation and antichrist were man made fairytales?
but the book says that the saints will reign
The fleshly Israel of the OC ended in 70AD.
The new Israel of God started at the cross.
The fleshly circumcision of the OC ended Tom, no one has to do it ever again.
Again Tom, did the Israelites in the desert ever see the promised land when they were given the OC?
Was the OC in effect to these Israelites who never saw the promised land?
That's not what the Bible says Tom. The Bible says nothing about anyone getting raptured away.
I don't see it because it's not there.
You only see it because John Nelson Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Lewis Sperry Chafer, Stam, Bullinger, and Bob Enyart told you it was there.
It's not there Tom. You listen to men instead of reading what the Bible says.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
better update my software, then
Tet, I'll give it one try. But let me be sure of what you believe?
Some questions: (Please, for now, forget the lost Ten Tribes. You are more concerned with that than God is.)
a. Do you believe that God promised Israel an EARTHLY kingdom?
b. Did Israel get a kingdom?
c. Were there two gospels in effect during the Book of Acts?
God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX
There are no scriptures in the Holy Bible which state that Gentiles are/become Israel.
rom 9:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
When Paul says to Israel that they aren't all Israel, this in no way, shape, or form says that Gentiles are included in Israel.
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
Being the seed of Abraham DOES NOT make one Israel.
...but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed
The seed of Israel is not through Abraham, but through Isaac, thereby ELIMINATING all Gentiles from being Israel.
28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Israel is by way of Jacob, who is through Isaac. If you're not of that route, then according to the Bible, you're NOT Israel. We Gentiles are NOT of that route. We stop at Abraham.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed
Being of the the flesh ALONE isn't enough but you must ALSO be of the Spirit. We Gentiles ARE NOT Israel of the flesh to begin with, therefore NOT included in the statement.
Gal 4:21- This story is a comparison of law vs. grace, not about who is Israel. This story in no way includes Gentiles in Israel.
Brtish Israelists, "Covies," Prets......confuse the "grandpa"(Abraham) with the grandson(Jacob/Israel).
rom 9:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
When Paul says to Israel that they aren't all Israel, this in no way, shape, or form says that Gentiles are included in Israel.
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
Being the seed of Abraham DOES NOT make one Israel.
...but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed
The seed of Israel is not through Abraham, but through Isaac, thereby ELIMINATING all Gentiles from being Israel.
28And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Israel is by way of Jacob, who is through Isaac. If you're not of that route, then according to the Bible, you're NOT Israel. We Gentiles are NOT of that route. We stop at Abraham.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed
Being of the the flesh ALONE isn't enough but you must ALSO be of the Spirit. We Gentiles ARE NOT Israel of the flesh to begin with, therefore NOT included in the statement.
Gal 4:21- This story is a comparison of law vs. grace, not about who is Israel. This story in no way includes Gentiles in Israel.
Brtish Israelists, "Covies," Prets......confuse the "grandpa"(Abraham) with the grandson(Jacob/Israel).
Jer. 31:31-37
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
“All Israel” would consist of the seed of Jacob.
Rom 9:6-13
(6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
………………Abraham’s seed pertaining to the promises are to be called through Isaac.
(8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
………………Isaac was the promses HEIR and the seed through which God will fulfill his promises.
(10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
(12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
………………Because God has mercy on whom He will have mercy; He choose Jacob and His seed as the heir to the promises made to the seed of Abraham (not Esau).
Rom 9:6-13
(6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
………………Abraham’s seed pertaining to the promises are to be called through Isaac.
(8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
………………Isaac was the promses HEIR and the seed through which God will fulfill his promises.
(10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
(12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
………………Because God has mercy on whom He will have mercy; He choose Jacob and His seed as the heir to the promises made to the seed of Abraham (not Esau).
So our clothes don't get left behind?
"But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot (my comment added: a reference to Daniel’s portion/inheritance in the land promised to his father Abraham in the Abrahamic covenant) at the end of the days." Daniel 12:13
Land, baby, land….real estate…lot….
Resurrection="to stand up" : the doctrine of a future bodily, physical resurrection, is not merely some sort of "spiritual" "standing up", is confirmed throughout the Old Testament.
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God...." Job 19:25,26
(Stand is a clear reference to resurrection)
"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." Job 14:14
"The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death." Proverbs 14:32
"Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Psalms 16:9,10
"Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth." Psalms 71:20
"I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD." Psalms 118:17
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isaiah 26:19
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Hosea 13:14
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2
Again: "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand(emphasis mine)at the latter day upon the earth..." Job 19:25
How does verse 13 show that the "preterist" view, for eg., that the the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled is false? The answer is very simple: the 70th week of Daniel cannot have been fulfilled, because Daniel has not been resurrected. If you take the scripture literally, Daniel will be resurrected at the end of the still-future 70th week, the portion of the Jewish sabbatic calendar that concludes Daniel's prophecy. And here’s the simple reasoning – the seventy weeks are Jewish sabbatic years, and the time interval pertains to the nation of Israel("thy people"-Daniel 9:24). When God temporarily set aside the nation of Israel, as recorded in the book of Acts, the "sabbatical clock" stopped ticking. When the LORD God resumes in the future His dealing with Israel according to His faithful promises, "...the promises made unto the fathers...."(Romans 15:8), this sabbatical clock will resume, and the 70th week (sabbatic year) can, and will resume.
Of course you may discount this literally, suggesting that this is a "spiritual" resurrection, as do "postmillennialists/A-millennialists" today, as Hymenaeus and Philetus did, "...saying the resurrection is past already....(1 Tim. 1;20, 2 Tim. 2:18). You decide, for "...to his own master he standeth or falleth...." Romans 14:4.
"But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people." Leviticus 20:24
A King, a kingdom,on earth, "land ,baby",with the Lord Jesus Christ ruling over Israel, who will be regenerated, "born again," both physically and spiritually, in resurrected bodies, so that they will not sin(the blessings of the New Covenant, promised to them, not the BOC), and they over all nations, as His ministers, servants, chosen/peculiar people.......and no longer as "the tail."
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? ...(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. " Romans 4:1,17-21
The above is used by Paul to confirm that Abraham was a man of faith, believing that, even though his own body was virtualy dead, and it would seem that the LORD God would fail in His promise that Abraham and his descendents(since he was too old to have kids) would inherent the land.. And how would the LORD God make good on this promise? Abarham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Daniel…………………………..would inherit the land in regenerated, 'born again", physical bodies, souls/spirits.
Abraham obtained NO inheritance “as of yet”, then we’re reminded the land was promised to him for a “possession”.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
……………… Hebrews 11 explains that Abraham’s seed DIED not having received the promises.
We must conclude that in order for this covenant regarding land to become an “everlasting possession” and be completely fulfilled, there MUST be a resurrection ,and Abraham himself will be placed in it.
Mat 22:31-32
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
(32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
………………He IS the God of the living.
Genesis -Revelation, baby; that is the "big picture." A King, ruling over a kingdom on earth....land, baby.
Land, baby, land….real estate…lot….
Resurrection="to stand up" : the doctrine of a future bodily, physical resurrection, is not merely some sort of "spiritual" "standing up", is confirmed throughout the Old Testament.
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God...." Job 19:25,26
(Stand is a clear reference to resurrection)
"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." Job 14:14
"The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death." Proverbs 14:32
"Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Psalms 16:9,10
"Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth." Psalms 71:20
"I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD." Psalms 118:17
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isaiah 26:19
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Hosea 13:14
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2
Again: "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand(emphasis mine)at the latter day upon the earth..." Job 19:25
How does verse 13 show that the "preterist" view, for eg., that the the 70th week of Daniel has already been fulfilled is false? The answer is very simple: the 70th week of Daniel cannot have been fulfilled, because Daniel has not been resurrected. If you take the scripture literally, Daniel will be resurrected at the end of the still-future 70th week, the portion of the Jewish sabbatic calendar that concludes Daniel's prophecy. And here’s the simple reasoning – the seventy weeks are Jewish sabbatic years, and the time interval pertains to the nation of Israel("thy people"-Daniel 9:24). When God temporarily set aside the nation of Israel, as recorded in the book of Acts, the "sabbatical clock" stopped ticking. When the LORD God resumes in the future His dealing with Israel according to His faithful promises, "...the promises made unto the fathers...."(Romans 15:8), this sabbatical clock will resume, and the 70th week (sabbatic year) can, and will resume.
Of course you may discount this literally, suggesting that this is a "spiritual" resurrection, as do "postmillennialists/A-millennialists" today, as Hymenaeus and Philetus did, "...saying the resurrection is past already....(1 Tim. 1;20, 2 Tim. 2:18). You decide, for "...to his own master he standeth or falleth...." Romans 14:4.
"But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people." Leviticus 20:24
A King, a kingdom,on earth, "land ,baby",with the Lord Jesus Christ ruling over Israel, who will be regenerated, "born again," both physically and spiritually, in resurrected bodies, so that they will not sin(the blessings of the New Covenant, promised to them, not the BOC), and they over all nations, as His ministers, servants, chosen/peculiar people.......and no longer as "the tail."
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? ...(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. " Romans 4:1,17-21
The above is used by Paul to confirm that Abraham was a man of faith, believing that, even though his own body was virtualy dead, and it would seem that the LORD God would fail in His promise that Abraham and his descendents(since he was too old to have kids) would inherent the land.. And how would the LORD God make good on this promise? Abarham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Daniel…………………………..would inherit the land in regenerated, 'born again", physical bodies, souls/spirits.
Abraham obtained NO inheritance “as of yet”, then we’re reminded the land was promised to him for a “possession”.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
……………… Hebrews 11 explains that Abraham’s seed DIED not having received the promises.
We must conclude that in order for this covenant regarding land to become an “everlasting possession” and be completely fulfilled, there MUST be a resurrection ,and Abraham himself will be placed in it.
Mat 22:31-32
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
(32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
………………He IS the God of the living.
Genesis -Revelation, baby; that is the "big picture." A King, ruling over a kingdom on earth....land, baby.
"And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing..." Genesis 12:2
"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Ex. 19:6
"Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD." Jeremiah 31:35-37
"And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all." Ez. 37:22
'And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever." Micah 4:7
Daniel is a summary of God's ultimate promise to restore the kingdom to Israel-the consumation. The period of days that occur during the last of the "70 weeks" include the resurrection of Daniel. When was he resurrected? The days of Daniel 12 were still future in the Lord Jesus Christ's day, since he referred to the abomination of desolation as still future in Mt. 24:15, and he specifically refers us to Daniel. The events were still future when Paul wrote 2 Thes. 2:3,4. Again, the events of Daniel 12 concerning the abomination of desolation were still future when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke, and the specific days relating to those events were numbered. Daniel was promised to be resurrected at the end of those days in which the abomination of desolation is in place. The article modifying "days", "the", is the article of the previous reference. The "days" of verse 13 refers to the days discussed in the previous verses-Chapter 12 "a time of trouble"="Jer. 30:7="/"at that time thy people" /"seal the book, even to the time of the end"=the end of the Great Trib, when the LORD God will make good on the covenental promises given to the JEWS(thy people"), including LAND:
The time of Jacob's trouble "pre-figured in Gen. 32:7:
"Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed..."
"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it." Jeremiah 30:4-7
This was not fulfilled in A.D. 70, as the Jews were driven out of the land, scattered, not saved, and fled in terror. This is future.
"and to seal up the vision and prophecy" 9:24
" ...., shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end..." 12:4
"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." 12:8-10
"...Many shall be purified....but the wise shall understand..." 12:10/" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand .." Mt. 24:15 =Future!
"to shut up" means to cause a cessation or to completely fulfill. Thus, the vision and the prophecy are to be completely fulfilled. When was he resurrected? This is a reference to all visions and prophecies recorded in the Holy Bible, and all were revealed to the Jews, and all of it is sealed up in Israel. Daniel was commanded to seal up the book of prophecy until the time of the end, which was not at the cross, which was not at A.D. 70, meaning when the Jews would be returned to the LAND, and have it as their inheritance="stand in thy lot"(12:13).
"Jesus told the Jews in Matt 12 that the Kingdom was to be taken from them and given to a nation that is bringing forth the fruits required." This is "the little flock"-Jews, "the kingdom church". Does "a nation of priests" sound familiar?=Jews! See my post on the fact that the body of Christ is never referred to as a "nation of priest".The gospel of the kingdom: a kingdom, a king, and LAND. Not the Body of Christ. This has not happened-it will. The LORD God will fulfill the promises made to the Jews=Romans 11:25-29, 15:8...... =a kingdom, a king, land:
"...as the days of heaven upon the earth...." Deut. 11:21
"to a nation"? The body of Christ is never referred to as such, and our sphere of blessing is the heavenlies, not on earth=land! A kingdom=LAND, or "class dismissed". This is a promise to Jews!
The Genesis 12 Everlasting Covenant
-Genesis 17:7,19
That necessarily includes Resurrection.
Land-the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Jacob's descedants: Gen. 13:17, 15:7,17:8, 26:3, 28:13; Heb. 11:8,9.
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob die without receiving the promised land: Heb 11:13; Gen. 25:8, 34:29, 49:33; Acts 7:5
The land is specifically promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (and Jacob's descendents, including Daniel), and that they died without receiving that promised land.
The Land Promise is repeated or referred to more than any other promise: Genesis 12:7, 13:15, 13:17,15:7, 15:18, 26:3, 28:3-4.
Thus, we must come to one of several conclusions:
1. No Power: God did not have the power to fulfill the promise. Not likely! God introduced Himself to Abraham and Jacob in the following manner: "....I am Almighty God....." Gen. 17:1, 35:11.
2.God Changed His Mind: Nope! Acts 15:18, Malachi 3:6
3. God had a hidden, deeper, or higher goal than His literal promise. The real meaning of the land promise would be revealed after the death, burial, and resurrection, at Penntecost. Nope! The "spiritual goals" God has for us do not replace, reduce, or contradict the literal promises of God. This spiritualizing of Scripture has introduced the heresy of "Replacement" theology.
In the RESURRECTION God will fulfill the land promise exactly as written by raising up from the dead Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(and Daniel and.................). This conclusion alone honors the promises of God and the faith of Abraham. When Abraham died, he had not received the promised land!(nor did Daniel!) In the resurrection,he and his faithful descendants will inherit the land exactly as promised.
"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance(my emphasis-in the resurrection, as confirmed in Daniel 12:13=his "lot=his land inheritance in a resurrected body), obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8
In Matt 22:31 & 32 the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking to unbelieving Sadducees, connects God and Abraham to prove/confirm the doctrine of the resurrection.
"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"(resurrection-my emphasis).
Daniel 12:13: "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest(in death), and stand in thy lot at the end of the days"(in resurrection attain the land inheritance-my emphasis).
Matt 8:11: "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven"(resurrected in the land of "the kingdom of heaven"-my emphasis).
Daniel 2:44: " And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom(my emphasis-a kingdom is set up by force=a violent, sudden event with great force, while the body of Christ is being "built up"=a gradual, process-1 Cor. 3:9-11, Col. 2:7, Eph. 2:20-22), which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
No one can sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, unless they are raised from the dead.
unto Eternal life:
An everlasting covenant between GOD and Abraham demands everlasting life, an everlasting possession of the promised land to Abraham and his descendants demands the resurrection and everlasting life.
These facts of an everlasting covenant between God and Abraham, Gen.17:7 and the promise of an everlasting possession of the land given to Abraham(Gen 17:8), are the biblical foundation for our belief in the resurrection and eternal life, and the eternal inheritance of the Lord Jesus Christ Christ and the Jewish saints.
God will be faithful. The Romans 15:8 promise to the circumcision will happen, and this includes the land inheritance.
Accept it.
"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Ex. 19:6
"Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD." Jeremiah 31:35-37
"And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all." Ez. 37:22
'And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever." Micah 4:7
Daniel is a summary of God's ultimate promise to restore the kingdom to Israel-the consumation. The period of days that occur during the last of the "70 weeks" include the resurrection of Daniel. When was he resurrected? The days of Daniel 12 were still future in the Lord Jesus Christ's day, since he referred to the abomination of desolation as still future in Mt. 24:15, and he specifically refers us to Daniel. The events were still future when Paul wrote 2 Thes. 2:3,4. Again, the events of Daniel 12 concerning the abomination of desolation were still future when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke, and the specific days relating to those events were numbered. Daniel was promised to be resurrected at the end of those days in which the abomination of desolation is in place. The article modifying "days", "the", is the article of the previous reference. The "days" of verse 13 refers to the days discussed in the previous verses-Chapter 12 "a time of trouble"="Jer. 30:7="/"at that time thy people" /"seal the book, even to the time of the end"=the end of the Great Trib, when the LORD God will make good on the covenental promises given to the JEWS(thy people"), including LAND:
The time of Jacob's trouble "pre-figured in Gen. 32:7:
"Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed..."
"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it." Jeremiah 30:4-7
This was not fulfilled in A.D. 70, as the Jews were driven out of the land, scattered, not saved, and fled in terror. This is future.
"and to seal up the vision and prophecy" 9:24
" ...., shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end..." 12:4
"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." 12:8-10
"...Many shall be purified....but the wise shall understand..." 12:10/" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand .." Mt. 24:15 =Future!
"to shut up" means to cause a cessation or to completely fulfill. Thus, the vision and the prophecy are to be completely fulfilled. When was he resurrected? This is a reference to all visions and prophecies recorded in the Holy Bible, and all were revealed to the Jews, and all of it is sealed up in Israel. Daniel was commanded to seal up the book of prophecy until the time of the end, which was not at the cross, which was not at A.D. 70, meaning when the Jews would be returned to the LAND, and have it as their inheritance="stand in thy lot"(12:13).
"Jesus told the Jews in Matt 12 that the Kingdom was to be taken from them and given to a nation that is bringing forth the fruits required." This is "the little flock"-Jews, "the kingdom church". Does "a nation of priests" sound familiar?=Jews! See my post on the fact that the body of Christ is never referred to as a "nation of priest".The gospel of the kingdom: a kingdom, a king, and LAND. Not the Body of Christ. This has not happened-it will. The LORD God will fulfill the promises made to the Jews=Romans 11:25-29, 15:8...... =a kingdom, a king, land:
"...as the days of heaven upon the earth...." Deut. 11:21
"to a nation"? The body of Christ is never referred to as such, and our sphere of blessing is the heavenlies, not on earth=land! A kingdom=LAND, or "class dismissed". This is a promise to Jews!
The Genesis 12 Everlasting Covenant
-Genesis 17:7,19
That necessarily includes Resurrection.
Land-the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Jacob's descedants: Gen. 13:17, 15:7,17:8, 26:3, 28:13; Heb. 11:8,9.
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob die without receiving the promised land: Heb 11:13; Gen. 25:8, 34:29, 49:33; Acts 7:5
The land is specifically promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (and Jacob's descendents, including Daniel), and that they died without receiving that promised land.
The Land Promise is repeated or referred to more than any other promise: Genesis 12:7, 13:15, 13:17,15:7, 15:18, 26:3, 28:3-4.
Thus, we must come to one of several conclusions:
1. No Power: God did not have the power to fulfill the promise. Not likely! God introduced Himself to Abraham and Jacob in the following manner: "....I am Almighty God....." Gen. 17:1, 35:11.
2.God Changed His Mind: Nope! Acts 15:18, Malachi 3:6
3. God had a hidden, deeper, or higher goal than His literal promise. The real meaning of the land promise would be revealed after the death, burial, and resurrection, at Penntecost. Nope! The "spiritual goals" God has for us do not replace, reduce, or contradict the literal promises of God. This spiritualizing of Scripture has introduced the heresy of "Replacement" theology.
In the RESURRECTION God will fulfill the land promise exactly as written by raising up from the dead Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(and Daniel and.................). This conclusion alone honors the promises of God and the faith of Abraham. When Abraham died, he had not received the promised land!(nor did Daniel!) In the resurrection,he and his faithful descendants will inherit the land exactly as promised.
"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance(my emphasis-in the resurrection, as confirmed in Daniel 12:13=his "lot=his land inheritance in a resurrected body), obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8
In Matt 22:31 & 32 the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking to unbelieving Sadducees, connects God and Abraham to prove/confirm the doctrine of the resurrection.
"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"(resurrection-my emphasis).
Daniel 12:13: "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest(in death), and stand in thy lot at the end of the days"(in resurrection attain the land inheritance-my emphasis).
Matt 8:11: "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven"(resurrected in the land of "the kingdom of heaven"-my emphasis).
Daniel 2:44: " And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom(my emphasis-a kingdom is set up by force=a violent, sudden event with great force, while the body of Christ is being "built up"=a gradual, process-1 Cor. 3:9-11, Col. 2:7, Eph. 2:20-22), which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
No one can sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, unless they are raised from the dead.
unto Eternal life:
An everlasting covenant between GOD and Abraham demands everlasting life, an everlasting possession of the promised land to Abraham and his descendants demands the resurrection and everlasting life.
These facts of an everlasting covenant between God and Abraham, Gen.17:7 and the promise of an everlasting possession of the land given to Abraham(Gen 17:8), are the biblical foundation for our belief in the resurrection and eternal life, and the eternal inheritance of the Lord Jesus Christ Christ and the Jewish saints.
God will be faithful. The Romans 15:8 promise to the circumcision will happen, and this includes the land inheritance.
Accept it.
He would rather be wrong than to agree with his arch-nemesis john w on something.
_
Call me "Sluggo John."
Don't call it rapture if you don't like it, but we all agree that saints will be resurrected/glorified at some point in history.
If we are not here for the Trib, it is moot. If we are, it is what it is. In both views, the big issue is that Christ is coming back and we are to live for Him everyday and preach the gospel.
Right or wrong about eschatology/chronology will not make or break our relationship with Christ and each other.
The Great Commandment/Commission trump knowing what the 10 toes on the symbol represent.
The Motivation for the Rapture
The Motivation for the Rapture
Why should we even care about "the Rapture"? Here are five reasons why we should:
The Motivation of the Rapture
1. It comforts us in our earthly trials:
1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
2. It causes us to be busy in the Lord’s work:
1 Corinthians 15:58 (KJV) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
3. It causes us to live obedient lives:
1 John 3:1 (KJV) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 (KJV) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 (KJV) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 (KJV) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 (KJV) Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:7 (KJV) For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
4. It causes us to separate from evil:
Titus 2:13 (KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 (KJV) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
5. It causes us to avoid false teachers:
1 John 2:24 (KJV) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:25 (KJV) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1 John 2:26 (KJV) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1 John 2:28 (KJV) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Source: Advanced Bible Study Series: Understanding Bible Prophecy, David Cloud, pg. 139-140
The Motivation for the Rapture
Why should we even care about "the Rapture"? Here are five reasons why we should:
The Motivation of the Rapture
1. It comforts us in our earthly trials:
1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
2. It causes us to be busy in the Lord’s work:
1 Corinthians 15:58 (KJV) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
3. It causes us to live obedient lives:
1 John 3:1 (KJV) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 (KJV) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 (KJV) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:5 (KJV) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 (KJV) Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:7 (KJV) For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
4. It causes us to separate from evil:
Titus 2:13 (KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 (KJV) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
5. It causes us to avoid false teachers:
1 John 2:24 (KJV) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:25 (KJV) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1 John 2:26 (KJV) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1 John 2:28 (KJV) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Source: Advanced Bible Study Series: Understanding Bible Prophecy, David Cloud, pg. 139-140
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6. We can "punt"/give up that delusional, "fairy tale" idea of all of us being "Rambo"'s.
Ecumenicist
New member
Once again, the inherent issue with commonly accepted Rapture Theology: Those who are obedient to Christ's Commandments to Love and Serve would not desire Rapture, but would rather desire to stay and help those who suffering Tribulation.
The commonly accepted Rapture Theology reveals the true stripes of its adherants: "Save me and to hell with the rest of them..." Not consistant with Christ's message, not consistant with Christ's life, not consistant with Christ's ultimate Sacrifice.
The commonly accepted Rapture Theology reveals the true stripes of its adherants: "Save me and to hell with the rest of them..." Not consistant with Christ's message, not consistant with Christ's life, not consistant with Christ's ultimate Sacrifice.
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