toldailytopic: The rapture. When will it happen and what will it be like?

[godrulz]

Once again, the inherent issue with commonly accepted Rapture Theology: Those who are obedient to Christ's Commandments to Love and Serve would not desire Rapture, but would rather desire to stay and help those who suffering Tribulation.

The commonly accepted Rapture Theology reveals the true stripes of its adherants: "Save me and to hell with the rest of them..." Not consistant with Christ's message, not consistant with Christ's life, not consistant with Christ's ultimate Sacrifice.

Many believers will be dead before the rapture/Trib. It will only be one generation that would fit your negative bill.

The issue is the purpose of the Tribulation vs Church Age. Those in the Church Age do love and serve. We are torn, like Paul, between remaining in body to serve or die to be with Christ (Phil.). We do not desire rapture from a bad motive of escape (since we are committed to occupying until He comes; those who only believe in Second Coming cannot be faulted for wanting to see Him when He is ready nor does it negate our love and service until He does come?!), but a desire of lover/beloved.

The Tribulation is a time of wrath on ungodly nations (the church is not appointed unto wrath Thess./Rev. in light of the cross) and for restoration of national Israel. There will be 144,000 witnesses and millions of Tribulation saints to love and serve, in addition to the Spirit who continues to save those who do not follow Antichrist/False Prophet. The Church will be at the Bema Seat and will return with Him at the end of the Trib. This is God's program that we embrace, so there is no need to attribute wrong motives to those who have no choice in light of God's sovereign plans.

Some of us will have loved ones who will go into the Trib. Our attitude is not save me and to hell with the rest. We trust God's witness during the Trib and know multitudes will be saved, even if martyred (Rev. 6). We trust God and realize the witness/work does not depend personally on us or any imperfect church today.

What is your view, Wiseguy? Post-trib? Amill? etc.?

Make a biblical argument instead of a straw one the rest of us also reject. It is a non-sequitur (does not follow) to think a biblical rapture/revelation view must lead to your accusations. If a few feel this way, they need to be corrected, not change their valid eschatological view (most pre-tribbers would be offended at your ignorance and misrepresentation; we are doing the work now, but a different set of believers will do it during the Trib, no fault or failing of our own).

 

[tetelestai]

a. Do you believe that God promised Israel an EARTHLY kingdom?

Nope, Christ said God's kingdom reigned in the hearts of men.

Christ said nothing about a political earthly kingdom.

b. Did Israel get a kingdom?

Yup

(Luke 11:20) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Did Christ cast out demons during the incarnation?

c. Were there two gospels in effect during the Book of Acts?

Nope

 

[TeeJay]

Why should we even care about "the Rapture"? Here are five reasons why we should:

The Motivation of the Rapture

1. It comforts us in our earthly trials:

1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2. It causes us to be busy in the Lord’s work:

1 Corinthians 15:58 (KJV) Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

3. It causes us to live obedient lives:

1 John 3:1 (KJV) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:3 (KJV) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 (KJV) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 (KJV) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 (KJV) Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 (KJV) For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

4. It causes us to separate from evil:

Titus 2:13 (KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Titus 2:14 (KJV) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

5. It causes us to avoid false teachers:

1 John 2:24 (KJV) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 John 2:25 (KJV) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1 John 2:26 (KJV) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 (KJV) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1 John 2:28 (KJV) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Source: Advanced Bible Study Series: Understanding Bible Prophecy, David Cloud, pg. 139-140

Linda R,

Very good post. But may I make one suggestion. You can only quote Paul for support of the Rapture. Jesus Christ nor any of His circumcision apostles do not mention the Rapture. The Rapture is mentioned only by Paul. Why? Beause it is for the Body and not for Israel. Please read my post No. 63.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[TeeJay]

Tet, it's worse than I thought. But I will get you straight. I've had something come up and I will get back to you in a day or two.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

bye

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

bye

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Tet, it's worse than I thought. But I will get you straight. I've had something come up and I will get back to you in a day or two.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

He's convinced that the house of Israel=Gentiles.
I can't wait to see how you convince him otherwise.

 

[tetelestai]

He's convinced that the house of Israel=Gentiles.

Why don't you tell us who the house of Israel is?

If you say they are Jews, then explain to us how the 10 tribes of the house of Israel became Jews?

Remember, in 1 Kings the Israelites from the house of Israel were at war against the Jews.

In Hosea, God tells the Israelites that they no longer will be a people, and scattered them amongst the Gentiles.

We also know that in the OT that God divorced the Israelites from the house of Israel.

So, tell us who the house of Israel was in the first century?

 

[tetelestai]

Tet, it's worse than I thought. But I will get you straight.

Actually Tom, it is you that has been brainwashed by Bullingerism.

But, that's ok, maybe in your attempts to prove your Bullingerism to me, and with my replies, the Holy Spirit will show you that Bullingerism is not what the Bible says.


So, bring on the Bullingerism, I am loaded for bear.

 

[tetelestai]

Jesus Christ nor any of His circumcision apostles do not mention the Rapture.

Neither does anyone else in the Bible mention a rapture.

The "rapture" was made up by men about 200 years ago.

 

[tetelestai]

Jesus Christ nor any of His circumcision apostles do not mention the Rapture.

Neither does anyone else in the Bible mention a rapture.

The "rapture" was made up by men about 200 years ago.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Many believers will be dead before the rapture/Trib. It will only be one generation that would fit your negative bill.

The issue is the purpose of the Tribulation vs Church Age. Those in the Church Age do love and serve. We are torn, like Paul, between remaining in body to serve or die to be with Christ (Phil.). We do not desire rapture from a bad motive of escape (since we are committed to occupying until He comes; those who only believe in Second Coming cannot be faulted for wanting to see Him when He is ready nor does it negate our love and service until He does come?!), but a desire of lover/beloved.

You're right about our parallel to Paul, but there are no "ages" that justify abandoning those in need. God doesn't change, Jesus doesn't change.

If we Love Him, then we will desire to serve Him. And we will recognize Him. And how do we recognize Him? Where is He, here and now? He IS the LEAST among us, the poor, the naked, the imprisoned. By serving those who suffer we serve Him, and that does not and will not change.

Our desire to know / love Jesus drives us to serve others, and that will not change, because as long as there is suffering in the Universe, Christ suffers also.

The Tribulation is a time of wrath on ungodly nations (the church is not appointed unto wrath Thess./Rev. in light of the cross) and for restoration of national Israel. There will be 144,000 witnesses and millions of Tribulation saints to love and serve, in addition to the Spirit who continues to save those who do not follow Antichrist/False Prophet. The Church will be at the Bema Seat and will return with Him at the end of the Trib. This is God's program that we embrace, so there is no need to attribute wrong motives to those who have no choice in light of God's sovereign plans.

We are the Body of Christ, and that will not change. The Spirit works through the flesh, that will not change. Rapture and Tribulation are not God's program, they are human interpretation that reveals the very hearts of those who embrace those ideas.

Some of us will have loved ones who will go into the Trib. Our attitude is not save me and to hell with the rest. We trust God's witness during the Trib and know multitudes will be saved, even if martyred (Rev. 6). We trust God and realize the witness/work does not depend personally on us or any imperfect church today.

Classic answer - the same answer given regarding family members
consigned to eternal torment. Whether the torment is temporary in tribulation or permanent in damnation, the implications are the same -a willingness to enjoy fruits of paradise while others suffer. There is no love in this viewpoint, only selfishness. You can either trust God to allow others to suffer in a way that doesn't affect you, or you can trust God to bring universal healing, and putting an end to all suffering, so that there will be no more tears, the new heavan and earth. I trust in God - the True God of Infinite Mercy and Grace - to provide the latter -through Jesus the Christ - the True Healer- as promised in Revelation.

What is your view, Wiseguy? Post-trib? Amill? etc.?

Given that the earth is billions of years old, its clear that biblical timescales cannot be taken literally. I guess that makes me an amillenialist. There is suffering, there will continue to be suffering, until Christ's final victory over all suffering and death.

Make a biblical argument instead of a straw one the rest of us also reject. It is a non-sequitur (does not follow) to think a biblical rapture/revelation view must lead to your accusations. If a few feel this way, they need to be corrected, not change their valid eschatological view (most pre-tribbers would be offended at your ignorance and misrepresentation; we are doing the work now, but a different set of believers will do it during the Trib, no fault or failing of our own).

You pre / post trib folks are so wound up in the details of Revelation you forget the bigger picture of who Christ is and what Christ commands. Find an interpretation that is universally consistant with Scritpure, one that consistantly affirms that GOD IS LOVE, all Powerful, all Merciful, filled with Grace - unchanging - AND bringer of Justice and Judgement. The only POSSIBLE interpretation is one where judgement and justice = healing and restoration, for all people, indeed for all of Creation.

The biggest offense here is characterizing the Prince of Peace as the bringer of suffering and death. The fact that Scripture does indeed describe Christ in wrathful terms only serves to expose those willing to accept Christ on those terms, when deeper / merciful / loving interpretations can and do exist.

 

[Aimiel]

Just because you imagine a false god doesn't bring him into existence. God has said what He will do, and that includes an end to His patience with sin. He will judge the earth with great tribulation, and then Jesus will destroy the rest of His enemies with His Word upon His physical return to this planet. Sorry, but a Heaven containing Satan, Hitler, Hussein, bin Laden and the likes of yourself would be, quite simply: hell. Don't want any part of that place. Not me. :nono:

 

[TeeJay]

Neither does anyone else in the Bible mention a rapture.

The "rapture" was made up by men about 200 years ago.

Tet, you can assert that, but in my first post on the Rapture, I gave ample Pauline verses that support the Rapture.

Everyone tells me I'm wasting my time with you? But I am an eternal optimist. I'm going to try a simple approach--ONE ISSUE AT A TIME:

The Sabbath:

For Israel, Sabbath law is a perpetual statute. It is a negative command not to work. But over the centuries, Rabbis reasoned and Jesus confirmed that a positive command to DO always trumped a negative command not to DO. For example, if the eighth day of an Israelites life fell on the Sabbath, then Circumcision trumped the negative command not to work (or heal the sick as Jesus pointed out). But again, for Israel, the Sabbath law is perpetural.

Even a Gentile, if he wanted salvation, had to keep the Sabbath:

"Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants--everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant--EVEN THEM I WILL BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN..." (Is. 56:6-7).

In Perpetuity:

"Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath THROUGHOUT THEIR GENERATIONS as a PERPETUAL covenant" (Ex. 31:16).

The word "perpetual" translates from the Hebrew word "olam" which means forever. "...it's a sign between Me and the children FOREVER..." (Ex. 31:16-17)

Now for some unfathomable reason, you argue that "perpetual" does not mean forever? But does the Bible speak of the Sabbath in connection with any future periods such as those during the millennial Kingdom or the New Earth?

In the Book of Ezekiel, seven chapters describe worship at the Temple during the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM (Chs. 40-47:12). (The remaining chapter describes the division of the land during the Kingdom.)

"In controversy they shall stand as judges and judge it according to My judgments. They shall KEEP my laws and My statutes in all My appointed meetings, and they shall hallow My SABBATHS" (Ezek. 44:24). Also see Ezek. 45:17; 46:1, 3-4 and 12.

Will God still recognize the Sabbath beyond the millennial Kingdom, after the creation of "a new heaven and a new earth" (Rev. 21:1)? The latter part of Isaiah deals with the time frames of both the Kingdom and the new earth through passages such as:

"...he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth... because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hidden from My eyes. For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind" (Isa. 65:16-17).

"...I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing... the voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her..." (Isa. 65:18-19).

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox... They shall not hurt nor destroy..." (Isa. 65:25).

"For behold, the Lord will come with fire... The Lord will judge flesh; and the slain of the Lord shall be many" (Isa. 66:15-16).

And:

"...I will gather all nations and tongues..." (Isa. 66:17).

God then gives the analogy that forever Israel will remain as surely as the new heavens and the new earth will remain. After that, He then connects this PRESERVATION of Israel with a prediction that Sabbath worship will continue uninterrupted FOREVER:

"'For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,' says the Lord, 'so shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass that from one NEW MOON to another, from one SABBATH to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,' says the Lord" (Is. 66:22-23).

In other words, since God connected Israel with Sabbath worship and other celebrations such as the New Moon, then even while living on the new earth, as long as Israel exists as such, SHE WILL KEEP THE SABBATH.

Now, Tet, if you do not want to except this simple truth, then we should proceed no further.

If you can just except this simple truth, then I can eventually show you that when Jesus returns to Israel, they will not be under grace. They will be back under the Mosiac law.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[LindaR]

Linda R,

Very good post. But may I make one suggestion. You can only quote Paul for support of the Rapture. Jesus Christ nor any of His circumcision apostles do not mention the Rapture. The Rapture is mentioned only by Paul. Why? Beause it is for the Body and not for Israel. Please read my post No. 63.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

What about John 14:1-3 (KJV)? And again in Revelation 4:1 (KJV)? (which was also penned by the apostle John)

John 14:1 (KJV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 (KJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 4:1 (KJV) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

[godrulz]

Neither does anyone else in the Bible mention a rapture.

The "rapture" was made up by men about 200 years ago.

Forget the term for now. We agree that believers who are alive at His coming will be changed/resurrected/glorified along with dead saints (I Thess. 4; I Cor. 15). We can disagree about the exact nature and timing of this resurrection, so I would be slow to deny any rapture principle in Scripture (it refers to this change that you must agree on if you accept bodily resurrection of saints).

 

[godrulz]

Just because you imagine a false god doesn't bring him into existence. God has said what He will do, and that includes an end to His patience with sin. He will judge the earth with great tribulation, and then Jesus will destroy the rest of His enemies with His Word upon His physical return to this planet. Sorry, but a Heaven containing Satan, Hitler, Hussein, bin Laden and the likes of yourself would be, quite simply: hell. Don't want any part of that place. Not me. :nono:

Ecumenist talks about the love of God, but fails to mention the other biblical truths of His holiness, wrath, justice, moral government, hell, etc. As well, the universe is not billions of years old and biblical eschatology/chronology will pan out by the sovereign God, sooner than later.

 

[godrulz]

What about John 14:1-3 (KJV)? And again in Revelation 4:1 (KJV)? (which was also penned by the apostle John)

John 14:1 (KJV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 (KJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 4:1 (KJV) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

The rapture is primarily Pauline, but I concur with these Johannine references (and there are other non-Pauline ones, likely).

I have changed my thinking over time. I am pre-trib, pre-mill, but I think OT saints will be raised with Trib saints at the end of the Tribulation at His Second Coming (Church Age saints raised before the 7 year Trib). The only ones going into the earthly millennial rule on earth in natural bodies are the Trib saints who were not killed during the rule of Antichrist. The rest will be in glorified bodies ruling and reigning with Christ over the earth.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Ecumenist talks about the love of God, but fails to mention the other biblical truths of His holiness, wrath, justice, moral government, hell, etc. As well, the universe is not billions of years old and biblical eschatology/chronology will pan out by the sovereign God, sooner than later.

Actually, I do mention the other biblical truths. Damnationism ignores God's Love, a purgative healing theology accomodates hell, wrath, judgement, AND Infinite Mercy and Love.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Just because you imagine a false god doesn't bring him into existence. God has said what He will do, and that includes an end to His patience with sin. He will judge the earth with great tribulation, and then Jesus will destroy the rest of His enemies with His Word upon His physical return to this planet. Sorry, but a Heaven containing Satan, Hitler, Hussein, bin Laden and the likes of yourself would be, quite simply: hell. Don't want any part of that place. Not me. :nono:

If you want to liken anyone to Hitler, it needs to be someone who believes in a god who casts people into furnaces.