toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

[Todah]

I think America should handle it the way that is instructed by it's laws, and if you don't think so, why don't you move to one of the Dubai. And for the record, Turkey isn't the only one that allows for other religions to coexist in Muslim lands. i suggest you educate yourself instead of making broad generalizations out of ignorance. I used Turkey because it is often compared to America in the way it's government and laws are setup.

I am not arguing for any American superiority over others; that is western ignorance speaking through you. Each land decides their rights, and they should follow them and not make exception to them based on a feeling at the time.

ummm, first off you are speaking for yourself, not me. I feel no such thing. I am an American and I live like so. And when i visited Muslim lands I went by their rules and didn't find them offensive. You don't have the right to say that others are inferior because they have laws you may not agree with. I have no problem with Muslim laws in other lands, though I may not agree with some of them, just like I don't agree with some laws in America.

Regardless of what the treaty was for, the President and the senate didn't agree with your Christian founded principle myth. They knew the constitutions when they approved the Treaty of Tripoli and what it says.


You have reduces yourself to arguments from ignorance. Trying to put words in my mouth doesn't make you appear to be any smarter.

You are turning my words around until they mean something else, and then you are arguing that point, and you are almost completely ignoring what I said.

You, a Muslim agreed that the Muslim nation of Dubai would not do what you want America to do. Allow a mosque-CC {Cathedral Christian center}to be built two blocks from ground zero.

You brought up Turkey, I am assuming, you brought it up, because it would be the Muslim nation most likely to act as you want America to act. I never said it was the only Muslim nation that tolerates other religions, in fact I brought up Dubai because it "does" allow for other religions, and it is stinking rich like America. I think it is a greater equivalent than tolerant, but poorer Turkey. Besides it has the world's tallest building, as the twin towers were at one point in time?

I never said that others were inferior, because they don't have laws that I agree with. Where did you get that from?

I intimated that you being a tolerant nonexclusivist must find America's religious tolerance, {which far surpasses, any Muslim nation's } far superior to the general Muslim intolerance of other religions.

Do you care to refute that point, by pointing to any current Muslim nation that is more tolerant and nonexclusivistic of other religions, than America, which is made up of ~ 70% Christians?

Please argue that point and not change my words.....please!

 

[Todah]

Would all the people who find the Christian religion and its symbols and its holidays offensive to them, please, please, please, speak up!

Speak up for the dead and injured, heroes, and victims, and those devastated by their loss. These are the people who rightly feel the building of this Mosque CC, so near Ground zero, actually offends, and truly wounds their souls, even more deeply.

Come on all you cross haters, and Bible haters, and those offended by Christians. This is your chance to speak out against a religious symbol that actually offends and hurts real victims. Do not be hypocrites, and do not equivocate. This is a religion so callous that it is sticking its finger in the eyes of victims. At the very least, at least say it is offensive to you!

Where are all the atheists and agnostics on this forum, when you really need them?

If Christians were to build a Church on a ground zero caused by fanatic Christians, I would be totally against it, and speak out. At least I am consistent. It is not a question of religious tolerance, it is a question of people of a religion, being sensitive to others real pain. The Muslims who are building this structure and the government officials who can not find a reason to stop them{ they would if they were Christians} are insensitive, beyond measure.

 

[Lighthouse]

If Christians were to build a Church on a ground zero caused by fanatic Christians, I would be totally against it, and speak out.

I cannot agree with this one, because there is no text considered to be Holy by the whole of Christendom that would condone the acts, let alone command them, of one who committed such an act in the name of Christianity.

 

[Todah]

I cannot agree with this one, because there is no text considered to be Holy by the whole of Christendom that would condone the acts, let alone command them, of one who committed such an act in the name of Christianity.

Yes, I agree, no true Christian would do it, or be able to defend it through scripture; A Christian in name only. However that is the nature of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

There are people who call themselves Christians who would be capable of such acts. However that is the same answer most? Muslims would give to explain the ones who blew up the WTC. They weren't real Muslims.

I would argue against that. Killing infidels, Christians, Jews and other Muslim-infidels, is a tenet found in the Koran.

 

[Nick M]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 16th, 2010 11:23 AM

toldailytopic: How do you feel about building a mosque at ground zero?

I think it sucks.

The good part is Obama has retreated from his comments about constitutional rights when his bluff was called. As though he cares about rights from the Constitution.

 

[Nick M]

I have lived and worked in places NE is talking about. And as usual, he is a liar. Proselytising to Christianity is a crime. Unlike the US, where we have freedom of religion, and you can try and convince anybody of anything, it isn't a crime. You don't have to believe or go along with what they are saying.

I think America should handle it the way that is instructed by it's laws, and if you don't think so, why don't you move to one of the Dubai. And for the record, Turkey isn't the only one that allows for other religions to coexist in Muslim lands. i suggest you educate yourself instead of making broad generalizations out of ignorance.

 

[jgarden]

Conservatives are supposedly strict constitutionalists which means the state is not currently in the business of determining where places of worship can/cannot be built. They also seem to be those most opposed to having a "mosque" within 2 blocks of "Ground Zero."

Conservatives can't have it both ways - constitutionally Moslems can build mosques where they wish (subject to zoning). Any attempt to stop them would be an exercise in "judicial activism" by expanding, not limiting, the intrusion of government into the lives of private American citizens.

 

[Tathagata]

How do I feel? Well, at the very least it is a dreadful display of insensitivity and bad manners.

How?

At the very worst it is an opportunity to gloat by taking advantage of our laws to thumb their noses at us.

Sheer ignorance. It's a Sufi mosque and none of the Sufi's were involved in any terror attacks nor with any of the Sunni/Shiite conflict. They are the peaceful sect of Islam and in fact, share very little with Islam at all as they are generally considered heretical by mainstream Islam.

I guarantee all the opposers are entirely ignorant of Sufism and probably never heard of the word, yet they are against something they never heard of.

I hope they will reconsider and build their mosque somewhere else.
bybee

Or you could actually know what you're talking about.

 

[Tathagata]

Would all the people who find the Christian religion and its symbols and its holidays offensive to them, please, please, please, speak up!

Speak up for the dead and injured, heroes, and victims, and those devastated by their loss. These are the people who rightly feel the building of this Mosque CC, so near Ground zero, actually offends, and truly wounds their souls, even more deeply.

Come on all you cross haters, and Bible haters, and those offended by Christians. This is your chance to speak out against a religious symbol that actually offends and hurts real victims. Do not be hypocrites, and do not equivocate. This is a religion so callous that it is sticking its finger in the eyes of victims. At the very least, at least say it is offensive to you!

It is a Sufi mosque. Tell me one thing that you know about Sufism or any of it's tenets or even it's history.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Why do you say that? Is there any evidence that is the intent of the people behind the mosque?

The evidence is out there; it's only a matter of opening your eyes and seeing it.
http://www.islam-watch.org/index.ph...of-911-terror-attack&catid=79:mirza&Itemid=58
http://www.masada2000.org/islam.html

 

[chrysostom]

they don't have to build it

they just need to talk about it
and
see what they have accomplished

 

[Tyrathca]

I think it sucks.

But do you think the government should play a part in stopping it?

The good part is Obama has retreated from his comments about constitutional rights when his bluff was called. As though he cares about rights from the Constitution.

At least he is pretending, unlike those who are calling for the government to intervene and stop it.

The price of freedom is putting up with the decisions people make that you don't like, so long as it does not adversely affect you. Critical to that is that you do not have the right to not be offended. Thus the Muslims in question have the right to build the mosque and you have the right to complain bitterly about it. People even have the right to be a hypocrite and use their freedoms to ask the government to quash others freedoms, and people have the right to ridicule them for it.

I think the mosque is a bad idea and given the reaction it is insensitive to continue with it, but I also think that they should have the right ti continue with it regardless. No matter what everyone else (including myself) thinks. To do anything else would be to destroy the principles we are supposed to be defending.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Why do you say that? Is there any evidence that is the intent of the people behind the mosque?

But do you think the government should play a part in stopping it?
At least he is pretending, unlike those who are calling for the government to intervene and stop it.

Government "stops" construction all of the time. I believe it's called "zoning laws".

 

[Tyrathca]

Government "stops" construction all of the time. I believe it's called "zoning laws".

Yes but it is the reason it stops them that count. If this mosque falls afoul of zoning laws then so be it but to stop it simply because it is a mosque near ground zero would not be an example of this.

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

How?



Sheer ignorance. It's a Sufi mosque and none of the Sufi's were involved in any terror attacks nor with any of the Sunni/Shiite conflict. They are the peaceful sect of Islam and in fact, share very little with Islam at all as they are generally considered heretical by mainstream Islam.

I guarantee all the opposers are entirely ignorant of Sufism and probably never heard of the word, yet they are against something they never heard of.




Or you could actually know what you're talking about.

The question was "How do I feel".

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Yes but it is the reason it stops them that count. If this mosque falls afoul of zoning laws then so be it but to stop it simply because it is a mosque near ground zero would not be an example of this.

I'd say that public safety issues would be more than sufficient grounds to deny the permit.

 

[bybee]

Indeed

Indeed

I'd say that public safety issues would be more than sufficient grounds to deny the permit.

Should the Ku Klux Klan be granted a permit to march through Harlem on Martin Luther King Day? Why would they ask?

 

[Tyrathca]

I'd say that public safety issues would be more than sufficient grounds to deny the permit.

Safety of whom?

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Safety of whom?

If someone urinated on the grave of a loved one of mine, it wouldn't be me that would need police protection.

 

[Frank Ernest]

But do you think the government should play a part in stopping it?
At least he is pretending, unlike those who are calling for the government to intervene and stop it.

Government is certainly playing its part in allowing it. Government would have a role in stopping it also, if such be the case.

The price of freedom is putting up with the decisions people make that you don't like, so long as it does not adversely affect you.

If one doesn't like a decision made, said decision has obviously adversely affected you.

Critical to that is that you do not have the right to not be offended.

So it is said in theory, so it is not the common practice. "Hate" crimes come to mind.

Thus the Muslims in question have the right to build the mosque and you have the right to complain bitterly about it. People even have the right to be a hypocrite and use their freedoms to ask the government to quash others freedoms, and people have the right to ridicule them for it.

The Muslims do NOT have any "right" to build the mosque. The privilege of building it was granted by a government agency.

I think the mosque is a bad idea and given the reaction it is insensitive to continue with it, but I also think that they should have the right ti continue with it regardless.

They have no such "right." The Fifth Amendment reserves eminent domain to the government.

No matter what everyone else (including myself) thinks. To do anything else would be to destroy the principles we are supposed to be defending.

Well, then. Did not President Obama violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment when he implied that Muslims have a "right" to build the mosque, essentially, wherever they wanted? No, no, he declaims later he was defending freedom of religious practice. Really? If freedom of religion implies a Constitutional property right, we should demand a synagogue be built next door to the mosque, and then a Catholic cathedral next to that, then a Buddhist temple next to that, etc. Might want to rewrite the Fifth Amendment on "eminent domain" while we're at it. Accordingly, we would extend the principle of eminent domain to religious groups.

While we are defending the "right" you say exists for Muslims, why does said "right" not exist for Christians to build a church, essentially, wherever they want.